Ethanol in fuel - is it safe for the S10? The European answer.

[viewdvb]

I remember that there was a discussion about the effect the latest fuels containing various percentages of ethanol might have on the S10. Well the un-elected EU beaurocrats (someone get us out of the EU please!!!) have mandated that fuel manufacturers must offer fuel with up to 10% ethanol content, known as E10, and that fuel is now being forced on us in the UK. Something about ecology and global warming though, in our present arctic weather, we could do with a bit of global warming! Oops - sorry - as there is now no global warming to match predictions, it is renamed climate change. There is obviously no connection here with fuel company profits or the disastrous effect increased corn prices are having on the third world. I digress.... Because this is a new measure in the UK, there has been some publicity about which vehicles are suitable for this E10 fuel. Yamaha Europe has stated that all bikes after 1990 model year are suitable and unaffected by 10% ethanol addition. If you are interested, there is a definitive website that lists all Euro manufacturers' statements on E10 fuels http://www.acem.eu/index.php/policy-access/environment/e10. While there are differences in detail specs between European and NA models, I can't see any technical differences that would make NA models unsuitable for ethanol fuels. Whether you want to use it is another thing entirely. Since manufacturers are quoting "from model year so and so", we can presume that, if you are a classic bike fan, you'd better steer clear of it. Maybe a re-run of the kind of problems that removing lead from fuel caused for old bikes.

 

[Obrianmcc]

Welcome to our world.... Ethanol has been a fact of life for a while. I make it practice to treat every drop of fuel that is ran through my bikes. So far (Knock on wood) I have yet to experience a single fuel related issue..... with any of my bikes, etc, etc

 

[GrahamD]

Um. I ran an old Datsun 1981 L20 in the days when lead was being phased out. It ran 11:1 compression. It had an old head design that went back to the 70's. It didn't like the new unleaded "super". Found out that it was 95RON not 98RON. Then I found an independent station selling real 99RON unleaded. Tried that. Problem solved. Noticed the exhaust smelled a bit "sweet". reminded me of drag cars. Found out it was 20% ethanol. Did the research. Replaced $20.00 worth of parts. Car ran on that stuff intill I changed jobs. By that stage the Ethanol scare had kicked in and BP had released a real 98RON non ethanol blend that worked as well.

So two things were apparent here. The first being the Nissan in 1981 were already unleaded compatible because they knew they had to be and two it required very little alteration to be safe with ethanol, although 20% ethanol is less likely to phase out than 10%.

The other interesting fact...
When I checked the compatibility charts in different countries my then current bike was not under any circumstances to be run on ethanol fuel in Australia, but in other countries, according to the same manufacturers recommendations it was just fine. So did they release a special 300 units year version for Australia did they?
Bullshit they did.

So regardless, run what you are happy with. There is too much bullshit running around about ethanol and climate change and all it is at this time is a religious argument.
Trying to mention any facts is just not worth the time.

I for one have been watching the whole climate change thing since the 70's, ethanol fuel thing since the 80's. I have had zero problems with ethanol for 20 years although if I have a choice I use cane based ethanol only. I have never had it separate on me either.

Another thing, it's a two edged sword. The ethanol with absorb condensation in the tank. This stops water sitting in the bottom of the tank in pools. If it has to absorb too much though 10% of the fuel will separate out. So it may solve a problem in the beginning but make it worse in the end. o for long term storage I'd leave it alone if possible.

So regardless, Companies have to work to regulations. If they don't like that they can lobby. If they are not successful with the government they can lobby consumers through mags, climate denier sites, forums etc. If that is not successful they can damn well suck it up. Just like they did with ABS, EFI, unleaded, air bags, seat belts, disposing of toxic industrial wastes properly and all those horrible things. It's not hard to do even for a backyard mechanic.

Lot's of whining about a piddly little engineering problem.

Jeez I just went a bit Dallara there

 

[Mark R.]

In the U.S., the introduction of ethanol was ostensibly to wean the U.S. off of imported oil, but in reality it was a gift of taxpayer money to Big Ag, using the foreign oil dependency issue as the wedge. It takes about 1.2 gallons of gasoline/diesel fuel to make one gallon of ethanol, which has less energy than a gallon of gas. So, absent the requirement by government for ethanol production, people would not voluntarily make the choice to produce and use ethanol.

Corn production is subsidized by other people's money (taxes), as well as ethanol manufacturing facilities. Corn production has, as a result, been diverted to fuel manufacturing, rather than feeding people, and the higher mandated demand for corn, and its higher price, has caused people in the third world to go hungry, because food purchasing is such a high percentage out of their annual income.

Just another of an unending series of manipulations of the economy by government, using men with badges and guns, to get people to do things and make choices that they would not do otherwise.

I could go on and on forever about government, but suffice it to say, government is just a large criminal enterprise, with a monopoly on the use of violence in any given geographical area. Anyone who believes it is there to serve the common man needs to wake up and see reality.

 

[snakebitten]

Facts like those finally got me to dis-engage. I had to turn the TV off, go back to "music" on the radio, and generally ignore the printed paper the wife leaves laying around.

I'm now one of those folks I used to yell at for being on "ignore".

Turns out ignorance IS bliss! It's a gorgeous day on my front porch. Dogs chasing rabbits. Boat all cleaned up waiting for its new owner to get here from Corpus Christi. Coffee pot still warm. And my Eastern Beaver pack of goodies arrived yesterday.

My big mission today? Thank the watchmaker for resurrection, then hook up flashers on my S10.

Caesar is beyond my control. I give.

(apologies for the barely motorcycle response)

 

[usarider]

Hi, I'm from the government and we're here to help. ::025::

 

[nwryder12]

Facts like those finally got me to dis-engage. I had to turn the TV off, go back to "music" on the radio, and generally ignore the printed paper the wife leaves laying around.

I'm now one of those folks I used to yell at for being on "ignore".

Turns out ignorance IS bliss! It's a gorgeous day on my front porch. Dogs chasing rabbits. Boat all cleaned up waiting for its new owner to get here from Corpus Christi. Coffee pot still warm. And my Eastern Beaver pack of goodies arrived yesterday.

My big mission today? Thank the watchmaker for resurrection, then hook up flashers on my S10.

Caesar is beyond my control. I give.

(apologies for the barely motorcycle response)

Exactly!

 

[cezariomaia]

Here in Brazil, we use between 22% and 25% adition of ethanol in gasoline. I have a Toyota Corolla, A Honda Civic, a ST 1200 and a Harley Electra Glide. No issues at all. Consumption a litle bit high.

 

[creggur]

Facts like those finally got me to dis-engage. I had to turn the TV off, go back to "music" on the radio, and generally ignore the printed paper the wife leaves laying around.

I'm now one of those folks I used to yell at for being on "ignore".

Turns out ignorance IS bliss! It's a gorgeous day on my front porch. Dogs chasing rabbits. Boat all cleaned up waiting for its new owner to get here from Corpus Christi. Coffee pot still warm. And my Eastern Beaver pack of goodies arrived yesterday.

My big mission today? Thank the watchmaker for resurrection, then hook up flashers on my S10.

Caesar is beyond my control. I give.

(apologies for the barely motorcycle response)

Props for the Rush reference...

One of the best posts I've ever read on any forum.

 

[JohnB]

Be thankful your Tenere has a metal fuel tank. And, start worrying if you own a Ducati or other make with a plastic tank. The ethanol will do evil things with it and the manufactures will only replace it if you're under warranty. The tank for my '05 Multistrada cost $1900 (US). I eventually traded it for my metal tanked Triumph. ::009::

 

[markjenn]

These ethanol discussions tend to veer into the political ditch, but insofar as technical issues, E10 has been the defacto fuel of record for the vast majority of US vehicles for some time now and except for some far corners of the operating envelope (e.g., the plastic tank issue with certain vehicles), it has not caused any problems. Yamaha has said the S10 runs fine on it, most of us are using it, and I haven't heard of any issues with the S10. (E10 does return about 3% less fuel mileage, consistent with the lower energy content of the ethanol in the blend.) FWIIW, I am using it in all six of my motorcycles (which range in age from 1971 to current) without doing anything special and have had no problems.

- Mark

 

[Dallara]

...Lot's of whining about a piddly little engineering problem.

Jeez I just went a bit Dallara there

That's OK... You did a terrific job! Many of my own thoughts exactly!

...Caesar is beyond my control. I give.

(apologies for the barely motorcycle response)

Amen, Bruddah! Amen! ::008:: ::008:: ::008::

These ethanol discussions tend to veer into the political ditch...

What's wrong with that?

I just it hadn't veered into the MJ ditch... :-[


::015:: ::015:: ::015::

Dallara



~

 

[johnnail]

In the U.S., the introduction of ethanol was ostensibly to wean the U.S. off of imported oil, but in reality it was a gift of taxpayer money to Big Ag, using the foreign oil dependency issue as the wedge. It takes about 1.2 gallons of gasoline/diesel fuel to make one gallon of ethanol, which has less energy than a gallon of gas. So, absent the requirement by government for ethanol production, people would not voluntarily make the choice to produce and use ethanol.

Corn production is subsidized by other people's money (taxes), as well as ethanol manufacturing facilities. Corn production has, as a result, been diverted to fuel manufacturing, rather than feeding people, and the higher mandated demand for corn, and its higher price, has caused people in the third world to go hungry, because food purchasing is such a high percentage out of their annual income.

Just another of an unending series of manipulations of the economy by government, using men with badges and guns, to get people to do things and make choices that they would not do otherwise.

I could go on and on forever about government, but suffice it to say, government is just a large criminal enterprise, with a monopoly on the use of violence in any given geographical area. Anyone who believes it is there to serve the common man needs to wake up and see reality.

Mark is spot-on ::007::

 

[klunsford]

Everyone come ride Oklahoma... We have non Ethanol fuel here...Probably close to half of our stations sell the Non-Ethanol fuel... doesn't help when you ride to other states that don't have it, but it sure runs good here.

 

[snakebitten]

Braggart..

Rightfully so too.

 

[kballowe]

............~ It takes about 1.2 gallons of gasoline/diesel fuel to make one gallon of ethanol, which has less energy than a gallon of gas. ........~

Source?

Everything that I've been able to read, contradicts your statement.

This is where I started
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_energy_balance

 

[klunsford]

Not really bragging, just stating a fact... You ride Oklahoma if you want to ride long and straight, unless you are traveling east or west, then you ride at an angle... ::025::

 

[Mark R.]

Source?

Everything that I've been able to read, contradicts your statement.

This is where I started
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_energy_balance

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329132436.htm

http://www.energyjustice.net/ethanol/factsheet

The bottom line is that absent government mandates (men with guns and badges) and subsidies (other people's money, taken by men with guns and badges) there would be no ethanol production to speak of.

 

[snakebitten]

Not really bragging, just stating a fact... You ride Oklahoma if you want to ride long and straight, unless you are traveling east or west, then you ride at an angle... ::025::

Well you are more a gent than I. If Texas had the good fortune of easily accessible straight gasoline, I'd surely brag. But alas, we, home of the sweet Texas crude, like to add corn to it.

I don't lose sleep over it. But my KTM gas tank turned into the elephant mans head for some reason.