ES and two-up touring?

dragonflyTN

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I currently have a 2012, and one of the first things I did was to replace the rear spring because the spring rate was too low for two-up touring. I am planning to trade up to a 2015 ES, but I've read some comments here that imply the ES rear spring rate is not sufficient for two-up loaded touring. I've also read some posts that imply the rear spring cannot be replaced on the ES.

I have two questions:
1. Is the rear spring rate still a problem on the 2014 and later ES version?
2. If so, can the spring be replaced?

This could be a show stopper for me since my wife and I are planning a 4-corners tour of the U.S. with some detours to famous national parks along the way.

We've also been investigating the KTM 1290 Adventure, and so far have found only one fault with that bike - it's chain drive.

Any advice is appreciated!
 

snakebitten

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Fair question too, in my book.

No matter what bike you are talking about, with conventional suspension components, it just seems like laws of physics would deny Yamaha (or any manufacturer) the ability to ship the bike with a suspension setup that was equally sufficient for running solo or loaded like a pack mule.

I DO believe it is possible to get a suspension setup somewhere in the middle, and thus lessen the compromise between the 2 weight extremes. But that would require the ability to address spring and valve-ing modifications.

By the way, this would hold true for the Mighty Orange machine, as well.
 

Vanderwho

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I have a 2014 ES, and ride roughly 50/50 solo/two-up. I find that adjusting the preload electronically works very well. I get a plush ride for solo, long-distance riding on the slab, and with 3,200 miles on the bike now, have not yet touched down a footpeg in the twisties riding fairly aggressively two-up. I'm happy as a clam.

I have no idea whether the spring can be replaced on the ES.
 

TNWalker

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Hey Walt, I now have the 2014 ES and feel the suspension works great. you are welcome to check mine out if you'd like.




Steve ::022:: ::26::
 

klunsford

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I have a 14 ES and really love the way that I can change my setting from one to two up just by making a couple of changes and never leave the bike. I find that the adjustment for two up is much better than what I could do with my 2012.
 

Lutsie

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I'm happy with mine. Have not done 2 up with luggage but I have done luggage in the passengers seat with no problem. 500 miles this weekend in the mountains. Handled like a champ.
 

jbjke

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2 up just over a week ago on the southern half of the Blue Ridge Parkway and all the way back to Iowa - roughly 1,200 miles

Just played a little with the suspension - my wife and I have also rode a 2012 with the same panniers but oem top box and noticed a huge difference from a stock 2012 to a stock 2014 ES


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

gaps

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I don't understand how the ES with a lighter spring than the non ES can possibly be adjusted to provide reasonable sag. Perhaps the ES shock has adjustable gas pressure too? Or maybe a very wide range of preload?

On my Non ES 14 I could not get good sag numbers on the OEM 750lb spring so I fitted a 900lb spring which got me in the ballpark, this is a good compromise for me at 240lbs solo and 2 up loaded up to about 450lbs.
 

Balmorerider

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dragonflyTN said:
I currently have a 2012, and one of the first things I did was to replace the rear spring because the spring rate was too low for two-up touring. I am planning to trade up to a 2015 ES, but I've read some comments here that imply the ES rear spring rate is not sufficient for two-up loaded touring. I've also read some posts that imply the rear spring cannot be replaced on the ES.

I have two questions:
1. Is the rear spring rate still a problem on the 2014 and later ES version?
2. If so, can the spring be replaced?

This could be a show stopper for me since my wife and I are planning a 4-corners tour of the U.S. with some detours to famous national parks along the way.

We've also been investigating the KTM 1290 Adventure, and so far have found only one fault with that bike - it's chain drive.

Any advice is appreciated!
I havea 2015 ES and am currently on a 6K trip fully loaded and two up. I have found the suspension to be totally up to handling riding aggressively in the twisties with all that weight. Very smooth and comfortable. Of course, a lot of that depends also on the rider/passenger weight. Luckily, we are both fairly average in that regard.
 

Marty

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We all ride differently and have different expectations. What someone else finds perfectly adequate, you may find woefully inadequate. I do know this for sure. There is no motorcycle shock in existence today, for any price, that can be adjusted for optimal performance in a range from one up no luggage to 2 up full luggage w/o, at a minimum, a spring swap.

The spring rate on the ES is lighter than the non ES, and the non ES is sprung for a light weight rider with no luggage or accessories.
 

archer

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I'm not a suspension specialist, but I have modified the suspension on almost every bike I have owned. I would think that even the new electronic rear shock would allow the spring to be removed and the shock repaired or rebuilt. Thanks to everyone who responded with their personal experience with the ES model and two-up riding. Good to know!
 

fredz43

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Conventional wisdom would say that there is no way that a S10 shock with only a 440 pound spring would work for even a solo rider. much less for two up and luggage. After all the 745 pound spring in the standard model is barely strong enough to get proper sag with a decent size solo rider. Turns out that the ES does work well with that weaker spring and for the 4 load conditions available from one up to two up with luggage. I don't pretend to know how it works, but the fact is that it does. The shop manual doesn't explain how it works that magic, at least I haven't found it there. The one indication I have found is this chart that shows that with each increase in preload, the damping is changed. It indicated that hydraulic damping is changed enough to accommodate the various loads. For instance the soft setting while two up with luggage is about the same as the hard setting when one up.



I spent considerable $$ on my 12 trying to get suspension setup that was what I was looking for, which was a compliant ride while also providing good handling on sporty twisty roads. I first went with Penske front and back and then Ohlins front and back. While they both were better than stock, I still wasn't entirely happy with what I had. A lot depends on how well you are able to explain to your initial setup person what you are looking for and then your talent in reading what the suspension is telling you and then what corrective action to take to make the proper adjustment. I sometimes was able to attain that for a particular condition and I sometimes ended up going the wrong way or had it set fine for bumpy back roads, but not so good for smooth twistes, etc. I don't pretend to be a suspension expert, but I do know when I have suspension that works for me.

On my first multi day trip to my favorite Ozark back roads with my 14 ES I was a very happy rider. I was able to play with the suspension with a push button and find what I was looking for with any road condition or load I had on the bike. I could adjust the damping while riding down a bumpy road to see what each setting did for me and then change it when I wanted to see how it worked on a different type of road. The system simply works.

As with many new technologies, it takes a while for all to accept it. Remember how the press and other non believers said that a major drawback with the S10 is that it didn't have an ABS off switch, after all, there is no way that ABS will work off road. Turns out that for the majority of off road riding that many of us do, it works perfectly well, especially if you trust the front brakes. The next generation of S10 suspension may well be the auto adjustment feature that some bikes have now and some of us may take a while before we trust that it can actually work.

Are there disadvantages of the ES system? I have found one. I had my ES parked in my garage directly in front of my riding mower. Instead of walking around to get to the other side, I stepped between them and put some weight on the rear rack of the S10 that was parked on the sidestand. To my surprise and dismay, I watched the bike fall over on the right side. The windscreen hit some shelves and broke the screen bracket. That cost me a bit, as that assembly is what the whole front instruments, etc are attached to. I have since learned to be careful when it is on the sidestand, especially if I had left the suspension in the solo setting. Evidently with the bike not running, you do not have the same hydraulic force that it has when running, so all you have is the light spring keeping it upright. If you have a chance, to check out an ES, carefully rock the bike while it is on the sidestand and you will see what I mean.

So, while I am far from a suspension expert, I know what I want and that is my understanding and impression of the ES system. Bottom line, is that after trying expensive alternatives on my 12, I am extremely happy with my ES and that is all that matters to me, regardless of what those that have not tried it believe.

This is another example of one of the sayings in my signature, by the way.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. ;D
 

TimNiceBut

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I too am more than happy with my ES, solo or loaded and two up. One odd ball thing I have noticed though is I can flat foot on the bike on the two-up with luggage setting (just me on the bike) but not on the solo so luggage setting. I'm still trying to get my head round that as I would have thought it would have jacked the bike up to set the sag when fully loaded.

Any thoughts anyone?

Tim Nice But ... Confused (As Usual)
 

mrpete64

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First,
I have read several reviews of the new KTM and they all commented on the engine heat. With that much horsepower and open engine design you will get that.
Second,
I had my ES side stand cut down about 3/8 of an inch. The bike was too vertical when I had my trax boxes on it and it almost fell over on me. The shortened side stand did the trick.

Mr. Pete----------->
aging hippie
 

snakebitten

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My favorite aspect of the ES is that it allows folks to easily discover the wonders of suspension adjustment. It makes it SO easy and effortless to experience the changes that take place when we adjust the preload and dampening settings that our modern bikes come with.

Without those buttons, I suspect the bike would be no different than any other modern bike......in that the average owner would rarely, if ever, really make any adjustments day to day, or even DURING a ride. As a result, the ES is getting wonderful reviews in the suspension area. And again, I am pleased about that.

But there is nothing magic about the little servos turning the adjusters for preload and dampening. (unless there is more to the ES than just servos making those same adjustments that a standard bike affords its owner as well)

Regardless, I'm someone that is tortured if I can't get the bike suspension to measure up to the experts opinion on sag and such. So I would never convince myself I was happy if I couldn't get the sag close. It's just me and my slavery to geometry.

I have thrown $'s at my suspension. And I can get sag where I am told it is proper. And I can adjust my compression and rebound and preload......manually.

If I could JUST have those magic ES buttons and the servos that go with it, I would be Ecstatic! But alas, I must pull out an allen wrench and\or 14mm wrench to do the same. And it's not magic when the very noticeable differences in the way the bike handles takes place.

Having said all that, everywhere I have ever ridden my well suspended Tenere, there are Teneres in front and behind me without all that fancy hardware. Having just as much fun and ridden with more skill than I have. (Yaw know who yaw are. LOL)
 

fredz43

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snakebitten said:
If I could JUST have those magic ES buttons and the servos that go with it, I would be Ecstatic! But alas, I must pull out an allen wrench and\or 14mm wrench to do the same.
Hi Snake,

Now, let's see you pull out those wrenches and make those adjustments while you are riding down the road. ;D

BTW, the "magic" am referring to is how the ES can provide good suspension performance with a shock that has a 440 pound spring. Doesn't seem possible by all that I have known about suspension. You can turn all the wrenches you want on a standard shock with that weight spring on a S10 and never get a decent ride. I don't understand the technology that Yamaha is using to do that with the ES, would love to learn more, but I know that it works.

Thanks.
 

gaps

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fredz43 said:
Conventional wisdom would say that there is no way that a S10 shock with only a 440 pound spring would work for even a solo rider.
Evidently with the bike not running, you do not have the same hydraulic force that it has when running, so all you have is the light spring keeping it upright. If you have a chance, to check out an ES, carefully rock the bike while it is on the sidestand and you will see what I mean.
Fredz, your observation with the garage tip over and the evidently stiffer suspension when running makes me wonder if there is a pump involved or perhaps a gas chamber with variable volume or???...
No matter, I'm not surprised Yamaha did a great job....just remember, real men ride straight rate springs with manual adjustments!
 

Tony Down Under

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I don't have any experience with the 2014 ES but I'm a compulsive 2012 S10 suspension tinkerer. I think the ES does most of its magic by subtle changes in leverage ratios. I haven't researched this myself but I've been told that the linkages on the ES are different to the standard models. This would go some way to explaining why the softer rear spring rate works.

One thing that I've learnt with the 2012 S10 is not to be too strict with sag numbers. I've been playing with a number of different fork and rear spring rates in an effort to achieve a comfortable and compliant ride on rough back roads (where I mainly ride) and I keep coming back to softer springs and not too far off the OEM spring rates. If I applied sport bike methodology to my sag numbers they would be outside the normal parameters but I'm finding a bit more sag with softer springs/better valving and a better quality rear shock seem to do the job, for me anyway.

As others have mentioned though, trying to find suspension nirvana by the use of one spring rate to satisfy all styles of riding and weight combinations wont work and it's always going to be a compromise. I think electronic suspension goes a long way to making that compromise more acceptable!
 

Tyke

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My current 2014 ZE (ES) is the third bike I've owned with electronic suspension, the previous two being a GS and GT1300EE both of which were good but not as good as the Tenere.

As yet we haven't toured two up with luggage so I'm not able to comment on the S10s capabilities, but from what I have experienced (solo and two up) its already my favourite ES bike ::008::
 
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