Elementary Power Commander question: 2 throttle modes, 1 map?

Tempesc

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Jul 2, 2015
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Hi all

Can someone help me with a very basic question?

I have bought and am about to fit a PCV (without autotune) to my 2014 S10. As I bought the PCV used I've downloaded the map for the 2014 stock S10 and uploaded it to the PCV. However there's only one map and two modes (i.e. sport and touring). Does the PCV just make the same adjustments to both of these maps? If so is this an issue?

Cheers
Andy
 

hogmolly

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Dec 12, 2016
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Texas
I thought the T vs S really only impacts the "fly by wire" response time between the throttle input and your wrist. It does not change fuel, air, or timing maps. I could be wrong.
 

doc187

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The T vs S modes effect many things, for example engine braking. My understanding is that the PCV only effects the fuel injectors. I just installed a PCV with autotune, a flashed ecu, and a full arrow system. The bike is dramatically different in T vs S.
 

Gigitt

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May 15, 2015
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Yes PCV will only affect fueling AFTER the ECU has done it's thing.

PCV monitors the Throttle Position Sensor, I think the Fly By wire servo motors still provide the exact same % throttle in either T or S... it is just that the rotation ramp up of the throttle is faster in S mode. This can be tested by hooking up the computer the the PCV and watching the throttle % value change in S and T modes - ignition on but engine does not have to be running to moniter TPS.

PCV does Not replace the ECU fuel mappings. The PCV fuel maps are just small + or - values or 'correction' on top of the ECU fuel mappings.
You can always load a ZERO fuel map into the PCV and it will run only ECU values.

Now that being said and I could be wrong here for the S10...
1) I think I read that there are a few fuel maps in the ECU... I can only assume that S and T modes have slightly differing Fuel Maps, S mode is so much more aggressive and the induction noise is far louder in S mode, so there is definitely something going on other than fueling - butterflies opening up earlier? etc.
2) how does the PCV manage these 2 modes then if there are actually 2 fuel maps for T and S modes.... well that is where I think the Autotune 200/300 comes in. You set a good base PCV fuel map, then let Autotune EFR map manage fuel trimming on the fly. You will always have fueling automagically mapped to EFR values - eg weather changes, and altitude.

So does this work with aftermarket ECU flashes... YES (but you base PCV map will need tweeking or just let Autotune adjust it to EFR values :) )

So my theory above with using Autotune is that the T and S modes should not be affected by the PCV/Autotunes etup at all - or should I say the PCV/Autotune should not notice difference in S or T modes or what ECU flash you run.

My PCV knowledge come from me playing with my PCV/Autotune 200 setup on my 2012 Kawasaki Versys 650.
 

jbrown

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Sep 25, 2012
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Regarding stock ecu fuel maps on the ST (not directly applicable to the PCV, but it may be useful to know what the ECU is doing):
I use Flash-Tune to modify the ignition timing and throttle-by-wire maps on my ST.
Here is a little info based on the data that Flash-Tune makes available to modify in their interface.
Please understand that this does not necessarily represent the whole picture, just the data Flash-Tune exposes, as they understand it.
Some of the current data differs from the first Flash-Tune interpretation for the ST, so they could still be misinterpretting some items.

Ignition Advance has a map for each gear with T and S modes having the ability to select different maps.
The stock ECU has the same maps configured for T and S modes.

Throttle-by-wire has a base map for each gear with T and S modes having the ability to select different maps.
The stock throttle maps are significantly different between S and T modes. Changing the throttle maps can affect a huge perceived performance and ride-ability change. It is also the safest change to make because you are not at risk of destroying the motor due to bad ignition timing or fuel choices.

Throtle-by-wire decel compensation also allows different settings for S and T modes and per gear.
The stock ECU has small differences here between S and T modes in gears 4, 5, and 6.

There are separate fuel maps for each cylinder, but S and T modes use the same map, so you can't have different fueling between S and T modes.
Since the O2 sensors are narrow band (I'm pretty sure), the closed loop fueling areas cannot be significantly changed via the fuel maps.
You would need to defeat the O2 sensors to disrupt the feedback to allow changing the fuel mixture at a steady cruise, for example.

I am running a slight ignition advance change (only to fix the potential excessive advance if the clutch switch is bypassed) and significant throttle-by-wire map changes to suit my riding preference. I think most of the differences people notice with a re-flash are in the throttle map changes.

I experimented a little with small modifications to fuel maps with no significant improvement in areas that I care about, so I currently have the stock fuel maps. (I'm not going to risk messing things up to gain a very small advantage accelerating hard onto the freeway!)

Certainly, a tool based on a different analysis from a different supplier may allow disabling the O2 inputs via a flash, allowing fueling changes in what would be closed loop areas, but the current Flash-Tune scheme does not.
 

Tempesc

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Jul 2, 2015
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Bristol, UK
Thanks - really helpful.

The PCV comes with an O2 optimiser than plugs into the OE sensors. My understanding it that this has the effect of changing the Air:Fuel ratio to 13.6:1 in the closed loop.

My instinct (to be tested) is that this is the adjustment that Is most relevant to me as I think my issues arise from the bike running too lean in closed loop.
 

jbrown

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The usual "O2 optimizer" tells the ECU that the mixture is perfect all the time. This causes the ECU to be satisfied with its base fuel map (no feedback adjustment applied at all). An optimizer that sets a specific A/F ratio would have to include a wide band sensor and circuitry to mimic a narrow band sensor at a different threshold. Much more costly than the simple approach. Using a PCV to offset the A/F ratio in the closed loop area requires telling the ECU that no adjustment is needed.
 

Gigitt

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Sydney Australia
jbrown said:
The usual "O2 optimizer" tells the ECU that the mixture is perfect all the time. This causes the ECU to be satisfied with its base fuel map (no feedback adjustment applied at all). An optimizer that sets a specific A/F ratio would have to include a wide band sensor and circuitry to mimic a narrow band sensor at a different threshold. Much more costly than the simple approach. Using a PCV to offset the A/F ratio in the closed loop area requires telling the ECU that no adjustment is needed.
Yes.

The DynoJet "O2 optimiser" sets a static AFR so the ECU does not adjust it's fueling in this closed loop range. BUT the optimiser is not a stand alone solution. You are adding the PCV and then you are supposed to get a dyno tune done (which they hook up a wideband O2 sensor to monitor the fueling during the dyno runs) and you end up with a specfic map set for your bike.

Now I dont know what this O2 optimiser box actually does... it is a box and is bit more black majic than my little O2 eliminator plug I use on my Versys.

So because you are adding the AutoTune which is a wide band O2 sensor, then the PCV will monitor and adjust fueling for the 0-100% throttle range in the AFR table you set.
 
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