checking for loose spokes

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johnb2012tenere

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I am sure there are a thousand threads on this one, but I couldn't find any due to having the computer skills of a baboon. The spokes look like a chinese jigsaw puzzle to me. How does one check them for tightness?
 

NavyDad

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I'm gonna show my age here, but I always used a small screwdriver or similar item and tapped each spoke. I get a nice "ting" sound from the tight ones and a loose one will have a different sound altogether. Always worked for me, but then so did ignition systems with points and condensors ::)
 

rlasater

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Navy dad's method is sound, however in this era of tech, they actually have a spoke torque wrench .


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Yamaguy55

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The simple version is up on the stand, wheel off the ground. then you strike each spoke in roughly the same spot and listen for tone. A dull thud means loose. Then you carefully squeeze spoke pairs with your hand. You can feel the loose one move. Finally, you get a dial indicator and carefully tighten spokes a tiny bit at a time to snug them up while being sure runout doesn't change.

I have the advantage of starting out years ago on bikes that had spokes. Every bike sold when I started had spokes. Since I either learned how to deal with wire wheels or walked, I learned. It isn't hard, but can be time consuming. Like everything else, you get proficient and then it rolls right along. I checked the rims for true when I changed the tires. With the tires off and the wheels in a balance/truing stand, it went fast with a magnetic based dial indicator. Both rims needed some adjustment.

If off side to side, but rim is round: you loosen the spokes on the side away from where you want to go by the same amount you tighten on the side you want it to go. That way, the wheel stays round, but the rim moves laterally.
If the rim is not round: you loosen spokes in a "dent" and taper off as you go away. Then you snug all of the other ones a half turn all the way around. It is easier to show you in person.

Here's the concept: On car rims and cast wheels, the weight goes from the axle to the hub to the rim to the tire to the ground. Impact goes the reverse.

On wire wheels, the weight is suspended from the top of the rim, so the spoke is in tension, not compression. The other spokes around the wheel keep things centered and share some of the load, but it is the ones on top that are holding up the weight. Because of this, impacts are spread all around the wheel. Which is why they can take a bigger hit that cast wheels, which transmit impact up from the ground, rather than around the whole wheel.

Clear as mud, right?
 

Yamaguy55

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Almost forgot: with our reverse spokes, we can use an allen wrench in the nipple and get a torque spec. I have an extended one with a ball end that goes on my 3/8 drive extension that allows me to get in there without whacking my knuckles on the hub, final drive or brake disks. That doesn't mean the wheel will be true, but does mean the spoke is the same tightness as the others. A dial indicator is a must. read the other post as well.
 

RED CAT

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The ball wrench required is a 5mm Metric. Best to check your spokes early on like at 500 miles or so. If you catch the loose ones early, you won't have any problems. Once the loose ones have been tightened, you usually don't have any more coming loose. Maybe check them every 3000 miles unless you're bush bashing on a regular basis. They usually only need a 1/4 turn or so to bring them up to spec. I just use the long skinny screw driver sound test and have never had a problem on any bike.
 

krussell

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Yamaguy55 said:
A dial indicator is a must
Any recommendations for a dial gauge. Seems like there's at least a 1000 options or so. Wide variance in price too.
 

OldRider

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I agree with Yamahaguy 100%. The only thing I would add is that when loosening and tightening the spokes to center the rim, go just a wee bit at a time. A little loosy/tighty goes a long way.
 

Yamaguy55

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krussell said:
Any recommendations for a dial gauge. Seems like there's at least a 1000 options or so. Wide variance in price too.
I happen to have a value priced kit from Grainger.

Magnetic base indicator set 4KU71. I got it for a task for my job, the company would have paid for it, but since I needed one occasionally, bought it myself. It is good enough for the use I have.

If I were doing crankshafts, i'd buy a Brown and Sharpe or a Starrett. But for wheels, this works fine. I have several wire wheel bikes at present. So I bought a wheel balance/truing stand as well. When I change tires, I true the wheel. The stand is a steel cheapie, good enough to true wheels and adjust spokes.
 

krussell

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Yamaguy55 said:
I happen to have a value priced kit from Grainger.

Magnetic base indicator set 4KU71. I got it for a task for my job, the company would have paid for it, but since I needed one occasionally, bought it myself. It is good enough for the use I have.

If I were doing crankshafts, i'd buy a Brown and Sharpe or a Starrett. But for wheels, this works fine. I have several wire wheel bikes at present. So I bought a wheel balance/truing stand as well. When I change tires, I true the wheel. The stand is a steel cheapie, good enough to true wheels and adjust spokes.
THANKS! A sanity check - the tighten and true is fine to do with the wheels on the bike as long as they are off the ground right? I'm likely over thinking it. I get truing at the tire change, but until then I don't want to pull the wheels to do it.
 

Yamaguy55

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krussell said:
THANKS! A sanity check - the tighten and true is fine to do with the wheels on the bike as long as they are off the ground right? I'm likely over thinking it. I get truing at the tire change, but until then I don't want to pull the wheels to do it.
It is just easier with bare rims. The outside of the rim is often not really true with the part of the rim that the tire fits to. I used where the bead seats as a reference. But if you have obvious true problems, external will get you very close.

You can try to turn the wheel if it is on the ground, but good luck. I'd do it up in the air, but that's me. ::013::
 

Ramseybella

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NavyDad said:
I'm gonna show my age here, but I always used a small screwdriver or similar item and tapped each spoke. I get a nice "ting" sound from the tight ones and a loose one will have a different sound altogether. Always worked for me, but then so did ignition systems with points and condensors ::)
Don't forget them drum brakes..

 

Yamaguy55

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Ramseybella said:
Don't forget them drum brakes..

And that well protected pipe for an off road bike.

I'm glad they got over that concept. Nothing like a squashed expansion chamber to improve performance.
 

NoMorBills

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Why do you think they call it a tune up?

A wrench can mess things up. Just ring them up.
The tune will tell all!
 

viewdvb

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Yes - Yamaha give you a nice easy torque setting for the spokes. That makes it a doddle doesn't? No it definitely does not! Never - repeat NEVER - go round with a torque wrench and just nip up any that are not quite up to the correct setting. This being my first bike with spoked wheels, I did that to my rear wheel at 2,000 miles. Half of them moved and I ended up with perfectly torques spokes and an out of round wheel. So, back to basics, a dial gauge and a lot of fiddling to get the wheel back to round and true. Maybe it is my lack of wheelbuilding expertise but I could not get the wheel true AND have all the spokes up to the correct torque setting. One or two needed leaving at just a little below spec to get everything to run true. Yes, I followed all the classic wheel building procedures and retried many times. A friend with lots of wheel building experience assured me that with normal wheels (i.e. not able to use a torque wrench) the aim was to get the rim to run true and all the spokes "pinging" albeit at various pitches without any dull thuds indicating undertightening. Anyway, my "retrue" has worked, all the spokes ping to some pitch or another and have needed no further adjustment for 22,000 miles. After the rear wheel experience, I checked the front by pinging the spokes; they all sounded good so I didn't check the torque settings and left them alone. The front still sounds the same and remains true.
 

snakebitten

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viewdvb said:
Yes - Yamaha give you a nice easy torque setting for the spokes. That makes it a doddle doesn't? No it definitely does not! Never - repeat NEVER - go round with a torque wrench and just nip up any that are not quite up to the correct setting. This being my first bike with spoked wheels, I did that to my rear wheel at 2,000 miles. Half of them moved and I ended up with perfectly torques spokes and an out of round wheel. So, back to basics, a dial gauge and a lot of fiddling to get the wheel back to round and true. Maybe it is my lack of wheelbuilding expertise but I could not get the wheel true AND have all the spokes up to the correct torque setting. One or two needed leaving at just a little below spec to get everything to run true. Yes, I followed all the classic wheel building procedures and retried many times. A friend with lots of wheel building experience assured me that with normal wheels (i.e. not able to use a torque wrench) the aim was to get the rim to run true and all the spokes "pinging" albeit at various pitches without any dull thuds indicating undertightening. Anyway, my "retrue" has worked, all the spokes ping to some pitch or another and have needed no further adjustment for 22,000 miles. After the rear wheel experience, I checked the front by pinging the spokes; they all sounded good so I didn't check the torque settings and left them alone. The front still sounds the same and remains true.
If everyone reads this post, we will all have round wheels and tight ENOUPH spokes. Good job.
 

Yamaguy55

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snakebitten said:
If everyone reads this post, we will all have round wheels and tight ENOUPH spokes. Good job.
Agreed. The torque thing works with a perfectly round/true new rim and new, lubricated spokes. Good luck finding a perfectly true rim, new or not. After a five mile ride, it no longer applies.
 

rotortech71

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I can just imagine that if every owner put a dial indicator on their wheels and checked them, they would drive themselves insane. I just spin mine once in a while and do a quick eyeball check, as well as the ping test of the spokes. (Like when I hit an unseen hole in the pavement like I hit on Sunday. My god, I expected my wheel to be "D" shaped after that one.)
 

Yamaguy55

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rotortech71 said:
I can just imagine that if every owner put a dial indicator on their wheels and checked them, they would drive themselves insane. I just spin mine once in a while and do a quick eyeball check, as well as the ping test of the spokes. (Like when I hit an unseen hole in the pavement like I hit on Sunday. My god, I expected my wheel to be "D" shaped after that one.)
Some certainly would. But if they understood wire wheels, did good-enoughs between tire changes, and trued up at those tire changes, it would be mostly a non issue. It is easy to stay ahead, tough to play catch up.
Most over think and under do. Good engineering is simple engineering. Same with wheel maintenance. All of my current bikes have wire wheels, I don't have any problems with them. I don't ignore it, or try for perfection. At least you can true wire wheels. Try that with cast wheels.
 
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