Cast wheels for a Tenere? or, at least, when do the spoke settle in?

[advd]

I have 1300 miles on my S10 and I am loving the bike.

I am really a road rider, well occasional gravel road too, but I chose this bike because it's one of the very few options tall riders have to be comfortable. I am 6' 6" tall and 280 lbs. I ride aggressively and have had many bikes over the years.

I've had to tighten my front spokes twice and my rear spokes 7 times so far.

This weekend was the first time I took my 5' 9" 140 lb wife for a ride, about 70 miles on Saturday and another 50 or so yesterday. Had to tighten spokes on the rear wheel after each ride, and they were tight before I left.

Are there any cast wheel options out there? When can I expect the spokes to settle out?

My method is the "tap & ring" approach I've used for years on dirtbikes. You simply tap the middle of the spoke with a screwdriver and if it rings you're fine, but a "thud" indicates a loose spoke. Every time, the "thud" on this bike turns out to be a nipple that is not even hand tight....

This is getting old. On my old GSA I had trouble with everything else on the bike by now, except the wheels. This one, no problems at all, except the wheels...

 

[pqsqac]

A cast wheel option would be great but nothing out there so far that I have seen. You never know someone may release something.

 

[Don in Lodi]

Have you tried marking the spokes? See if maybe it's the same spokes over and over. Maybe a Loctite app would be worth while.

 

[advd]

No, I haven't Don, but I like the idea and will do just that!

As for the Loctite, I've read all the threads and had thought of doing this sometime soon, I was hoping to get everything "seated" then lock 'em down.

Is everyone still using the green loctite for this application?

 

[Don in Lodi]

If I'm remembering right, the green will flow into already tightened fittings, blue goes on threads before and works against vibration loosening, red requires heat to break it loose.

 

[autoteach]

Loctite 290 is a wicking grade thread locker. I checked on it because the retaining compound they have is also green, and wicked permanent.

 

[Don in Lodi]

Good to know.

 

[jajpko]

If you decide to use the Loctite 290, you will only need a drop on each spoke. Also you need to clean the threads. I used a 10cc syringe and placed a rag around the spoke, to catch any drip. You only need a couple of drops. Also, if you use too much 290 you may have to use heat to remove the nipple. You don't want the loctite to penetrate too deeply. If you do have to use heat, a small soldering iron will work nicely.
Just a heads up...

 

[sail2xxs]

My spokes needed tightening once, at nearly 17K miles. Have 29K+ miles now, and the spokes are fine. I ride on and off pavement - gravel, forest service roads, etc.

Chris

 

[TEN YC]

thought I read somewhere once that you shouldn't use loctite on spokes for some reason.

 

[Don in Lodi]

thought I read somewhere once that you shouldn't use loctite on spokes for some reason.

Well, it makes future tightenings tough. But if it is in fact the same half dozon spokes backing off... Once the tensile limit has been reached after a few thousand miles the spokes shouldn't be changing shape any more. After he marks 'em, charts if they are the same ones, a threadlocker on the suspect nipples is the next step. That's the only way he's going to be able to eliminate the nipple and blame it on stretching spokes and get something done about it.

 

[advd]

Thanks guys. I'll mark the spokes and keep an eye on it. I'll report any findings back here.

In the meantime, if someone finds a cast wheel option.......

 

[Tippo]

Before you consider changing to cast wheels have a look at the special spokes that Woody has developed. (Vendors) I have no personal experience but Woody has a great reputation.

Jeff

 

[EricV]

Like the OP, I didn't give the spokes a thought until reading the "Check your spokes" thread on this forum. At I think 8K on mine. I had several loose spokes, but none severe. Only a few that were a turn or more. Most just a tiny bit to a 1/4 turn. I checked them again at 15k and torqued a few down, but fewer than before. Did them again just now, (24k miles), and found maybe three on the front that needed attention and torqued them, the rear only had one that just needed a bit of torque to get to spec. Lateral run out is +/- .010" (spec allows .080"), so I'm not going to worry about them.

All in all, I'd still prefer cast wheels and would seriously consider buying a set if they became available. I'm probably an 80/20 rider, but most of my off pavement is pretty good gravel to slower two track. I learned the hard way that it's a heavy bike and you can ride it hard, but it's not so hard to bend a rim if things go bad. I take it a bit easier in the nasty stuff now, and sometimes that means I don't take a road I'd like to explore if I'm alone and it gets ugly.

 

[Yamaguy55]

Last fall, I did a pretty rough off-road run on my Tenere. During the ride, I was on very rocky trails, and even tossed up a rock from the front wheel, that ended up putting a dent in my RHS header pipe. The area is where I usually ride my off-road modified WR250R, and it is often a real workout on that . Ask Venture, he knows... Due to the VERY rough, rocky trails, I came home and checked my spokes: none loose. I rechecked them several times since then, once even going so far as to put a dial indicator on the rims to check the runout. Still no problems. Understand that wire wheels support the weight with the spokes in extension, or the hub being supported by the spokes above it, and the cast ones by support from below. This allows a small amount of flex in wire wheels that lets them survive bigger hits than cast ones; cast ones can take some real abuse, but they usually crack, sometimes even catastrophically fail, where wire ones almost always dent.

I am wondering if it really is the spokes, or the flange holes in the rims that are the culprit here. My guess is the rim holes would be the prime suspect, as that flange isn't all that thick. Conventional wire wheels have a lot more meat around the nipples where they go through the rim that our rims appear to. I check both my off road bike and the Tenere for rim/spoke/wheel problems after each ride and bike wash: never a problem. I don't baby any of them, but do take care of them. I usually go over the wheels monthly under normal use, and very carefully after each severe service ride. If the spokes are really the problem, I'd call Buchanan's: http://www.buchananspokes.net/categories/spokes.asp They have a very well deserved reputation, and have doing this a very long time. We used to buy their wheel setups in the old days when nothing else would hold up. Never a problem.

I would not be inclined to put loctite on spokes unless I could prove the spoke nipple was actually unscrewing and causing the problem. That's easy enough to prove by marking every one of them with a paint stick, then seeing if any moved. Even then, I'd use the grade designed to retain small fasteners, but still allow them to be adjusted. I have a bottle of Permabond LM113 made for exactly that purpose. Loctite makes a similar product, and it is a kind of pink/lavender in color. It is specifically used for those things needing to stay where they are put, but may later need adjustment. Works like a champ on carb adjustments. Anything tougher than 242 will not help your cause, in my view. A heat gun is the ideal way to remove if you are inclined to use Loctite. Keep in mind that heat will loosen all thread lockers and most epoxies. So wherever you put it, it can't get much hotter than boiling water, or it won't work.

Good luck.

 

[Rasher]

Stupid Question Time :exclaim:

How do you accurately check / adjust spoke :question:

As a cast wheel only guy (if you exclude a 1976 FS1E) I have no idea, obviously you can't get a torque wrench on them so how do you tighten them correctly, is it one of those Black Arts mere mortals cannot possibly learn?

Would I also be right to assume some sort of sequence is required, I remember mates making some real odd shapes out of peddle bike wheels as a kid when attempting to tighten spokes.

 

[jajpko]

Last fall, I did a pretty rough off-road run on my Tenere. During the ride, I was on very rocky trails, and even tossed up a rock from the front wheel, that ended up putting a dent in my RHS header pipe. The area is where I usually ride my off-road modified WR250R, and it is often a real workout on that . Ask Venture, he knows... Due to the VERY rough, rocky trails, I came home and checked my spokes: none loose. I rechecked them several times since then, once even going so far as to put a dial indicator on the rims to check the runout. Still no problems. Understand that wire wheels support the weight with the spokes in extension, or the hub being supported by the spokes above it, and the cast ones by support from below. This allows a small amount of flex in wire wheels that lets them survive bigger hits than cast ones; cast ones can take some real abuse, but they usually crack, sometimes even catastrophically fail, where wire ones almost always dent.

I am wondering if it really is the spokes, or the flange holes in the rims that are the culprit here. My guess is the rim holes would be the prime suspect, as that flange isn't all that thick. Conventional wire wheels have a lot more meat around the nipples where they go through the rim that our rims appear to. I check both my off road bike and the Tenere for rim/spoke/wheel problems after each ride and bike wash: never a problem. I don't baby any of them, but do take care of them. I usually go over the wheels monthly under normal use, and very carefully after each severe service ride. If the spokes are really the problem, I'd call Buchanan's: http://www.buchananspokes.net/categories/spokes.asp They have a very well deserved reputation, and have doing this a very long time. We used to buy their wheel setups in the old days when nothing else would hold up. Never a problem.

I would not be inclined to put loctite on spokes unless I could prove the spoke nipple was actually unscrewing and causing the problem. That's easy enough to prove by marking every one of them with a paint stick, then seeing if any moved. Even then, I'd use the grade designed to retain small fasteners, but still allow them to be adjusted. I have a bottle of Permabond LM113 made for exactly that purpose. Loctite makes a similar product, and it is a kind of pink/lavender in color. It is specifically used for those things needing to stay where they are put, but may later need adjustment. Works like a champ on carb adjustments. Anything tougher than 242 will not help your cause, in my view. A heat gun is the ideal way to remove if you are inclined to use Loctite. Keep in mind that heat will loosen all thread lockers and most epoxies. So wherever you put it, it can't get much hotter than boiling water, or it won't work.

Good luck.

Hey guy,, I'm just gonna throw this out for some info. There have been reports of riders loosing the nipple or nipples and beating the swing arm with the spoke.
I think that is what started the "loose spoke talk" in the first place.
Anyway, I agree with your choice of thread locker. Vibratite is also like those. The only problem is you have to disassemble the spoke to use it. Although that is really not a problem. lol

 

[EricV]

Stupid Question Time :exclaim:

How do you accurately check / adjust spoke :question:

As a cast wheel only guy (if you exclude a 1976 FS1E) I have no idea, obviously you can't get a torque wrench on them so how do you tighten them correctly, is it one of those Black Arts mere mortals cannot possibly learn?

Would I also be right to assume some sort of sequence is required, I remember mates making some real odd shapes out of peddle bike wheels as a kid when attempting to tighten spokes.

Not a stupid question at all. Like you, I'm a cast wheel guy, so hey, I'm kind of new at this stuff too. A long allen bit, (2"), socket with a 6" extension and you can use a torque wrench on the spokes. I used my in/lbs Mac one for this as the torque value is too low for my ft/lb wrench.

There seem to be a lot of techniques. The shop manual gives the torque spec, but also says to 'ping' the spokes, tapping them with a screwdriver handle or such, and listening for a ringing tone or a flat tone. Flat tone means it's loose and should be tightened. I'm really not sure about a pattern. I end up going around the wheel and doing all the like oriented spokes, checking and tightening as needed, then go to the other side and do the opposite orientation spokes, then back to the first side for the opposite orientation spokes and finally to the second side to do the ones still left there.

I have no idea if this is a good method or not. My run-out has stayed small, so for me, it's good enough.

 

[stevepsd]

Stupid Question Time :exclaim:

How do you accurately check / adjust spoke :question:

As a cast wheel only guy (if you exclude a 1976 FS1E) I have no idea, obviously you can't get a torque wrench on them so how do you tighten them correctly, is it one of those Black Arts mere mortals cannot possibly learn?

Would I also be right to assume some sort of sequence is required, I remember mates making some real odd shapes out of peddle bike wheels as a kid when attempting to tighten spokes.

Look here: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=2871.0

I posted this months ago. A very good summary, however there is a good deal of 'art' in dealing with spokes!

 

[Yamaguy55]

The biggest thing for me is runout. If the spokes are adjusted to deal with the runout, they eventually will take a seat in the new position, then the torques can be dealt with at that point. But the key is get it straight first. As the rims are pretty tough and ridged, you can't merely torque a runout problem out, but must tighten one side and loosen another until it is straight/round. At that point, you ride around for a while, then recheck. It takes several tweaks to get it straight again. Keep in mind a rurally bent rim won't get back into shape, but must be replaced.
The methods using pinging/torque assumes new, or at least true/straight rims. If they are, they are, but if you need to get some runout fixed, it doesn't make a difference what the torque or sound is. Once the rim gets back to the straightness you want, then you worry about ping/torque. (they slowly came back into shape, it isn't instant: so you adjust a little, ride a bit, do some more, etc.)

If spokes are coming loose to the point that the nipple comes off or the spokes break, someone is beating the poo out of their wheels. I've had wire wheels for years, and have only broken spokes twice: both times when I hit a bowling ball sized rock. Not much will take that level of a hit well.

If you mark the spoke/nipple junction with a paint stick, and they loosen, I'd guess the rim holes are elongating. I can't see the hub end having problems. The Tenere spokes seem to be pretty robust to me. I've really hammered my wheels, and have had no problems. I also keep the tire pressure at factory spec. Run your tires low and you'll murder your rims unless you have rim protector tires.