ABS problems off pavement....anyone?

[Dirt_Dad]

Has anyone experienced an undesirable situation caused by the Tenere ABS system? I remember all the magazine writers complaining about the inability to turn off the ABS. I've used the S10 a fair amount off pavement, on dry and mud for the last year and have had no bad experiences. That said, I've done nothing all that hardcore, so wanted to see if anyone who flogs the bike harder than me has had a situation.

I realize some have installed disconnect switches, and I understand why. But for those that keep it active...any issues?

I love the ABS off pavement so far, but there are situations (extended steep rough downhill) where I'm not sure I'd have confidence the first time. Love to know what the hardcore guys have found.

 

[joneil]

Maybe someone can also give input on the procedure to turn ABS off. I was told by a rep at the local Yamaha dealer it can be disabled but it requires a complex operation. And for us off road green peas, why would you want it turned off? I have about 4500 miles on my Tenere, approaching 1000 miles off road, maybe more. ABS has kicked in a couple of times but I was glad it did. What am I missing?

 

[Dirt_Dad]

Maybe someone can also give input on the procedure to turn ABS off. I was told by a rep at the local Yamaha dealer it can be disabled but it requires a complex operation. And for us off road green peas, why would you want it turned off? I have about 4500 miles on my Tenere, approaching 1000 miles off road, maybe more. ABS has kicked in a couple of times but I was glad it did. What am I missing?

Never done it, but I believe the off procedure is just putting the bike on the center stand, run the bike in 2nd gear and hold the brake slightly. Bike will think the ABS has malfunctioned and turn it off into a fail safe mode. The ABS light will turn on and the ABS function turns off.

The reason to turn off the BMW ABS can be seen in this video.
BMW1200GS in free fall
When the back wheel locks the ABS momentarily releases the brake. If when it reapplies the brake and it's still sliding the brake releases again. This can happen enough to basically make the brakes completely disengaged at a very bad time.

The hill in this video is one I would approach with a completely locked back wheel to slide down it. I would like to think the S10 would give me that ability, but I've not had a chance to try it. Wondering if anyone has done it.

 

[GrahamD]

What am I missing?

You are missing the bit where a steep downhill section is a bit steep to slow forward momentum with the available grip. The option in those sections is to lock the back (and front if you are of hero status) and let it dig down to something harder OR push up some sand in front to get some drag going.

Unfortunately due to some badly set up ABS systems (as shown above) it has become somewhat of a rule to panic when approaching dirt and turn off ABS.

No one seems to say things like "get to know your ABS system and determine its limits, because they are all setup differently, even if they are from the same OEM"

Now add the UBS setup that YAMAHA uses, which again is probably different from other set ups, and you have two things that are trying to slow you down in tricky situations. Add to that that the YAMAHA system is alleged to have am inertial sensor and some software in there to predict what it thinks is going on and that is another variable to consider.

What Dirt Dad is asking seems to be asking is "what is it's limits". All I can say is find a place that allows you to explore the limits with a safe run off. Like an old quarry or steep dirt road with a flat section at the bottom.

Maybe a few people could do a "YAMAHA ABS familiarization and Techniques" (YAFAT) day. ::024::

Maybe a good thing for some of the S10 get togethers.

By the way even on Tarmac ABS systems behave differently, Just look how out of shape some of these bikes get ON THE DRY TARMAC compared to the Honda and S10.

Motorrad-ABS-Systeme im Test

Move to gravel and the S10 is still stable...

S10abs

As is a Vstrom...

VStrom ABS Testing on Dirt Roads

While everyone loves to point out the time the ABS "failed" they obviously won't notice the multiple times it didn't.

But they all get to the point where it gets too much. How the different systems (No ABS, ABS, ABS + UBS) behave and what the limit is is a very important question that has a different answer for each bike AND tire AND surface combination

 

[NoMorBills]

I have been in many downhill situations like the one above and even worst. The ABS works great. If you get to much speed up nothing will stop you. You must control your speed but not go so slow as to loose momentume. The Tenere ABS works at giving just enough brake to slow the bike without locking up the wheel so you can control the bike.

I use all the front and back brake that I want and I can't make it lock up till near stop. With it off I dont do near as good a job as the electronics can do.

The Tenere system is so differant from the german bikes. Do not compare.

 

[RED CAT]

You're dreaming in Technocolor! ::001::

 

[autoteach]

Ron,
If you want to ditch it it is pretty easy. Buy some brake lines and double line it with a double banjo straight out of the master right down to the front calipers. Run a single straight to the rear caliper. You would have non linked non abs brakes. Just put plugs in the abs unit to keep crap out of it and hang the original lines in the garage for some time down the road when you sell the bike. This would cost under 200 bucks to do, and then you could like the bike much more.

 

[dave6]

I did a very steep down hill on very loose dirt with approx 4" X 4" loose chunks of shale the complete length of the hill, I was was fully loaded for camping, extra fuel etc. I kept the bike at walking speed all the way to the bottom using the front brake only (linked brakes means the back was working a bit too, of course) no problem but I was very aware of the possibilities. Normally I would lock the back wheel and manipulate the front brake as required but the " front only" worked fine. It was a large wash out in the road that the quads had been making worse. The rocks were loose, rolling and moving under the front tire once in a while but other than a relative high heart rate for a while everything went well. I had to ride up the immediate opposite slope after crossing the creek at the bottom which had the same terrain also with no problem. I like the brakes just fine.

 

[MidlifeMotor]

I have inadvertently locked up my rear wheel twice on dry asphalt on my Tenere. Both times I had just down shifted to first gear while coming to a stop and applied the rear brake only. I was probably coming in too quickly to jump down to first AND apply rear brake. It wasn't a big deal, just letting it be known you can lock up the wheel even with ABS.

BTW, I wouldn't trade the ABS system for anything, especially on the road. Most of the fatal motorcycle collisions we work at our PD the motorcycle rider locked up the rear brake and either 1. went into a slide on it's side or 2. released the rear brake in a panic, high sided, and was thrown from the bike. ABS is the way to go on the road. I don't have much off-road experience to venture an opinion, but I do know I have crawled down some pretty steep hills on my Tenere using the front brake and had absolutely no problem. I felt like I was totally in control.

 

[Old Git Ray]

My first experience of a bike with ABS off road was an 09 GSA. (I had owned an ST1300 previously and it had saved my bacon on road a few times.)
Being completely green about the ABS off road issue I used my GSA off road not knowing why there was an ABS off switch. I soon found out on wet sloping grass. I nearly sh1t myself as it felt as though I had a fluid leak.

When Yamaha announced the S10 I was one of the first to put my order in having never even seen a picture of one. (Needless to say, I like Yamaha's.)

When the S10 arrived in June 2010 and having now learned a bit more about the ABS issue, I tried the bike out on the same piece of wet grass using the exact same pair of TCK80 tires (I took them off the BMW) and the difference was dramatic. The brakes simply worked with the ABS. Obviously the stopping distance was longer than on road but control was maintained.

Since then I have had no cause to even consider an 'ABS off' switch. My brakes have never failed to do anything other than just stop the bike whenever and wherever I have used them, regardless of surface. I tend to use my bike more off road than on and I always have off road tires on it.

As far as I am concerned, standard brakes can go to blazes. I will never be as good at braking as my bike is, and I know that scary front wheel lock ups are a thing of the past. I doubt I will ever be a riding God (too old now anyway) but the chances are that my ABS will let me meet God a lot later in life.

 

[Don in Lodi]

I too have had full control on steep rocky jeep trails, personally I'd say one was worse than that hill the poor guy on the GS is flying down, mine had a couple S's in it. Stood up, first gear, feathered the brakes, and had time to thread through the bigger rocks. Had to actually stop to let a jeep get further ahead. S2 (Sport & TC2) got me up to the place that was safe to turn around. That was my first test of the limits last fall. LOL, found out I did not like TC1 in the dirt at all. Just point it, aim between the rocks, and the bike will go. And yes, there is stuff out there that you should not take this bike over. I cringe at some of the stories. It is not a 300# dirt bike. Yamaha did do something different. I don't think there should be a fear of a run-a-way with this system.
And Ron, how many times have you ever gotten into the ABS on/in anything? Most people can go their whole lives without getting into an ABS stop. I do mean 'stop', not the traction assisting dirt down hills we're talking about.

 

[bloodline]

No reason to turn it off. The rear will lock enough to turn on tight downhill switchbacks. No fear of the bike running away.

 

[justbob]

I don't even like it on pavement. Off is even more of a dislike. I love the bike, but this is my first taste of ABS on a motorcycle and I had a major feeling I wouldn't appreciate it because on 4 wheel vehicals I hate it, but everyone demands and loves ABS so we get it at no charge I don't like it, but since I love the bike, I live with it. Something we will all eventually have to live with on all motorcycles most likely, so might as well get used to it I guess. I ride my Goldwing I ordered without ABS and is so much nicer braking without that stupid ABS.

Ron, I wouldnt call ABS "stupid". For the average rider, such as myself, ABS can be a good thing. In a panic situation I know what I do, I panic. The Goldwing has great brakes and enough braking force that it can lock the front wheel at speed on dry pavement, which can get ugly real quick. Just before I ran over a medium size dog at about 60 MPH in the rain I squeezed the brakes hard, the bike continued in a straight line, I am confident that the outcome would have been different without the ABS.
In a perfect world there in no need for ABS, I dont live in a perfect world.

 

[Mellow]

I have inadvertently locked up my rear wheel twice on dry asphalt on my Tenere. Both times I had just down shifted to first gear while coming to a stop and applied the rear brake only. I was probably coming in too quickly to jump down to first AND apply rear brake. It wasn't a big deal, just letting it be known you can lock up the wheel even with ABS.

BTW, I wouldn't trade the ABS system for anything, especially on the road. Most of the fatal motorcycle collisions we work at our PD the motorcycle rider locked up the rear brake and either 1. went into a slide on it's side or 2. released the rear brake in a panic, high sided, and was thrown from the bike. ABS is the way to go on the road. I don't have much off-road experience to venture an opinion, but I do know I have crawled down some pretty steep hills on my Tenere using the front brake and had absolutely no problem. I felt like I was totally in control.

I've done this as well when downshifting. It's not the brakes in my opinion in that situation, it's just engine braking too aggressively and the brakes can't help. A slipper clutch that is on some bikes would help prevent wheel lockup when downshifting. Again, just my opinion on what I think was happening, I know I've done it a few times so I try to be a little less aggressive on down shifting.

 

[terrysig]

With so much dirt bike time I choose to disable the ABS when woods riding and have ridden the same steep down hills as I do on my DB with the same technique, lock/slide the rear while modulating speed with front brak pressure. It works exactly the same...well I do it a lot more controlled given the weight difference between the S10 and my ATK 2-stroke.

I will work up to trying it with the ABS on, just haven't yet.

 

[bloodline]

With so much dirt bike time I choose to disable the ABS when woods riding and have ridden the same steep down hills as I do on my DB with the same technique, lock/slide the rear while modulating speed with front brak pressure. It works exactly the same...well I do it a lot more controlled given the weight difference between the S10 and my ATK 2-stroke.

I will work up to trying it with the ABS on, just haven't yet.

It will work. I was scared to death, at first. Looking at tight downhill switchbacks and thinking the bike may not lock a wheel was terrifying. It does. It works fine. Modulate the front to maintain steering and lock/slide the rear around. No problem with ABS on. Just remember to cover the rear first to un-link them, not that this is unnatural.

Same goes for mode TC2. The bike will loft the front wheel over obstacles and make you look like a hero on a steep climb. It's brilliant. Sort of boring, actually, until you remember you aren't on a 220# bike...

 

[Checkswrecks]

Karen and I were loaded 2-up with full bags on Sunday to come home from Vermont, when I tried a GPS "shortcut" that put us on this rutted remnant of a gravel road near Killington. It's a steep twisty downhill on loose dirt/gravel, has rain ruts for tire tracks, and numerous sandy washouts. Karen thinks the photo is a bit blurred because she was getting bounced around on the back of the bike.
(Or was my route choice that bad? )

I would not have even tried it on the FJR.
If we were on a GS, this would have been a stretch to absolutely turn off the ABS and try to relax the tension in my shoulders after reaching the bottom.


On the Tenere I just used the brakes.


I actually enjoy trying the ABS on loose surfaces, as it's amazing how much better than me it can come to a stop. Keep playing with it and you'll really come to appreciate the system.

 

[Dave B]

Has anybody tried keeping it in 1st gear and flipping off the kill switch ? I do this on my old KLR on steep loose downhills and it works pretty good to slow you down while keeping some control over the rear sliding too much. When you get to the end, just flip it back on. Haven't had the S10 on loose stuff yet.

 

[fredz43]

I don't even like it on pavement. Off is even more of a dislike. I love the bike, but this is my first taste of ABS on a motorcycle and I had a major feeling I wouldn't appreciate it because on 4 wheel vehicals I hate it, but everyone demands and loves ABS so we get it at no charge I don't like it, but since I love the bike, I live with it. Something we will all eventually have to live with on all motorcycles most likely, so might as well get used to it I guess. I ride my Goldwing I ordered without ABS and is so much nicer braking without that stupid ABS.

Hi Ron,

I am a bit confused by this and wonder if you would expand on why you don't like ABS on pavement and why your non ABS Gold Wing is so much nicer braking without ABS. My understanding of ABS is that it has no effect on braking and is transparent until you get in a situation where you would have locked one or both brakes and then it takes over to prevent the brakes from locking, so as to allow continued control of the bike. The current AMA magazine has a very good article in which several riders, some that were ABS non believers, learned how well it works while testing it in controlled conditons of varying traction.

Thanks.

 

[Z06]

Hi Ron,

I am a bit confused by this and wonder if you would expand on why you don't like ABS on pavement and why your non ABS Gold Wing is so much nicer braking without ABS. My understanding of ABS is that it has no effect on braking and is transparent until you get in a situation where you would have locked one or both brakes and then it takes over to prevent the brakes from locking, so as to allow continued control of the bike. The current AMA magazine has a very good article in which several riders, some that were ABS non believers, learned how well it works while testing it in controlled conditons of varying traction.

Thanks.

+1
Have had same model bike with ABS and without ABS and noticed no difference until point of lockup.