5 factors affecting daily mileage

[PhilPhilippines]

I’ve had a 900 mile day once. I’m really not into the iron butt thing. My ideal day is about 300 miles. Just more enjoyable for me.

About right for me too

 

[Sierra1]

Maybe you should attempt a ride the Ironbutt association calls the Dusty Butt, . . . .

I'm thinking about something more like the Lard Ass. . . . 30 minutes to the nearest ice cream store. I've done 12hr days, just didn't go very far.

When I was younger, I drove from Groton CT, to Ft. Worth TX. Left Groton at 7:30a Saturday. . . . in Ft. Worth on Sunday at 5p; in a car. Went to Colorado Springs in '19, in the Jeep. More bored out of my mind than anything else, but hated the drive.

 

[bigbob]

Left my first Romney Camp and ride with Steve Reno at 6 AM (5 AM Iowa time) heading home. Made it home at 9PM.

Now riding home when Steve has been gone from his lady and grandkids for a week there is no fiddling around. While hitting the head at a gas stop (the only stop allowed) you can grab a couple dogs and a coke and stuff them in your jacket then hit the slab and munch on the move.

Since my 14 has cruise I was (usually) allowed to lead. Once I looked to my left and Steve was next to me camera in left hand and jerky or some food in throttle hand taking my picture!

Anyway this is a distance thread, so we get to Steve’s house, about 2 hours more for me, and I stop for a short break and a glass of ice water. While drinking it Steve tells me I am going to be short. Short of what? I will gas here and make it home. You’ll see. Had no idea what he was talking about.

About a mile from home, really tired, and see I have 988 miles for the day. Two minutes to go after 16 hours and I am SHORT 11 miles!!! It was a 989 mile day. Now if he had said what I was short I would have taken a longer ride home!

My Steve story. It was a great Romney and I miss them.

 

[AVGeek]

My Saddle Sore ride was Phoenix to Vegas to Denver, on the Tenere (I still had my 2008 FJR at the time, but knew the Tenere was a better choice). Odometer mileage was 1066, and I did it in about 17 hours, and could have gone longer! I even stopped for reasonable lunch and dinner breaks...

 

[EricV]

To do 1000 miles at 70mph is 14 hours. And that is without rest stops.

And? Most people take 16-18 hours. Most of my 1k days were at slower speeds than that. A few at higher speeds due to location and higher legal speed limit. Long days have nothing to do with speed. It's about managing your time. I can hop on just about anything and do a 1k day, it's just a matter of how long it's going to take. I did one last Sept on my 150 cc scooter. It took 22 hours.

The point that most people miss that haven't done long days in the saddle on a regular basis is that this doesn't need to be uncomfortable. The point is to sort your ride so it's not uncomfortable, then find a process for gas stops that works well for you and stick to it every time so it becomes routine.

The average speed to ride 1k miles in 24 hours is only ~42 mph. There are no bonus points for taking less time, if you're going for an official IBA certificate ride. Time isn't even on the certificate, except to say you did it within 24 hours and followed the prescribed methods of documentation.

Rest stops. That's what people say that don't understand how to make the bike comfortable. If you need a rest stop, you're doing it wrong and you have ergonomic issues that you can sort to improve your comfort on all of your rides, not just the long ones. You need fuel stops. Most need a bio break at some point that isn't a regular fuel stop. No problem, You have plenty of time. It's standing around for 20 minutes BSing with someone at that stop that kills the time table. Do what you need to do and get back on the bike and go. It's hugely easy to save time and quite difficult to make up time. One of my past rally bikes had a 500 mile range, plus reserve. 11.5 gallons of gas on board. If I was just out for a ride, I might not stop for 500 miles unless I saw something I wanted to check out or needed a bio break. If my gallon water jug was full and I grabbed a couple of sandwiches at the start I wouldn't need to stop for lunch or lunch might be at that 500 mile fuel stop. 12 hours is a nice slow pace for a 500 mile day with stops, pictures a relaxed lunch, etc. If I needed to make more miles it was just a matter of staying on the bike more.

If you take the time to learn the process and learn to listen to your body, learn your individual fatigue signs and symptoms, then you understand what's bothering you, making you more tired or uncomfortable and you can work on fixing those issues and understanding when you need to stop and sleep and when you can keep going safely.

People do all kinds of dumb things. Not hydrating. Not eating or only eating power/energy bars and not drinking enough water. You can't eat and not drink. That stresses the body because it's trying to digest that food w/o any water to help. A dehydrated body equals a slow mind and you make mistakes, get tired faster and lose focus. That little thing that bothers you at 200 or 400 miles becomes a big thing when you ride 1000 miles or all day, for what ever mileage you consider all day to be.

 

[Highwayman]

Bit of ballet to maintain safe progress

Interesting video. No doubt these Officers can ride and not taking anything from em.... Id personelly consider that more of riding a wet road vs an actual rain day IMHO. BUT as a guy who has chosen a mc as daily transportation since around 1989ish over cages Ive had more than a few rain, snow, bad weather days under my belt. Alot of the stuff portrayed in the video is what you DONT do. You dont make a habit of riding the center of lanes where oil from cages collect which is most for em (especially rain days). You dont ride back and forth across wet and slippery road markings (including manhole covers). Unless of course a low side is in your plans for the day.

 

[Sierra1]

Yeah, maybe their paint isn't slippery like ours. I don't know if the markings are worse when wet, or when they are first laid down, and all the tiny glass beads are still on the road. I'm guessing they have some damn good rain tires.

 

[EricV]

Some of that is called "late apexing" to see better. Crossing the center line, might be fine for a LEO, everyone else gets a citation for that, AND it's fooking stupid. Never, ever cross the center line on a public road unless it's an emergency. Not your space and you're not expected to be there. If you "need" to do that for safely, you're out riding your ability, the road and the conditions. And that's just at 1:39 in to the vid. 'straitening the bend... Lazy MF. I'd be beating him with a pipe and asking him if he wants me to 'slow down' or stop. Again, a violation of the traffic code anywhere in the US. You're not on a race track, you're on the street, and he's not running codes and in pursuit. Bad form.

Failure to obey a traffic control device. Those boys would be dead in a week riding like that in the US on a similar road. Some group of college kids in a tri tone (rust, primer and fading paint), Caddy would wipe them off the road. And any civilian riding like that and witnessed by a LEO would be cited for multiple violations.

2 freaking seconds A-hole! Stop tail gating the rider in front of you. And notice the complete lack of the following rider to maintain distance when the leading rider slows at an intersection. "Safely using all of the road" You don't get "all of the road", you get all of your lane. Different country, different rules. Ride your own ride, don't follow the lead rider out into a pass.

Sloppy, lazy and poor form. Night stick to the shins and no more moto duty for you. This is the difference between training and LEO I can do what you aren't allowed to do training. If you can't stay in your own lane, you don't belong on the street. Car, bike or bicycle. All are required to follow the rules of the road. If I watched this as their boss, both riders would be on foot patrol forever. AND it would be a training video all right, on what not to do for 80% of it. Crap following distance throughout, multiple violations of vehicle code for no reason.

You have 80% of your dry traction in the wet on most anything but slick tires. I rode in the rain for 40+ years almost daily. Traction isn't an issue. Got to hate those California paint lines and wide arrows though. slicker then deer guts on a door knob.

There are tid bits of good stuff there. But honestly, if I was riding with those two and witnessed that riding style, I would tell them in clear terms that I would never ride with either of them again, and that they need to take some training classes and grow the hell up and learn to stay in their own lane. If they felt the need to share the lane with opposing traffic, they really should have been running codes. Illegal pass on double line.

This is fine for a LEO training vid, but completely unacceptable for a public riding vid. "as a police rider making progress" is a telling statement. A large majority of that behavior would get a civilian rider cited and asked "where's the fire". I was just making progress wouldn't cut it for an answer.

I've ridden with jerks like that. You may think this is harsh, but I really don't care. That's a shit show of bad riding form.

 

[Sierra1]

I just didn't understand it. I initially thought they were enroute to a call. Then I realized the lead rider was being evaluated. We don't know that he passed. He may have failed for all of Eric's stated reasons.

I learned about those painted lines/symbols in San Diego, in the '80s. They don't need rain to be slick, condensation after the sun went down was enough to cause a slide.

 

[PhilPhilippines]

Interesting video. No doubt these Officers can ride and not taking anything from em.... Id personelly consider that more of riding a wet road vs an actual rain day IMHO. BUT as a guy who has chosen a mc as daily transportation since around 1989ish over cages Ive had more than a few rain, snow, bad weather days under my belt. Alot of the stuff portrayed in the video is what you DONT do. You dont make a habit of riding the center of lanes where oil from cages collect which is most for em (especially rain days). You dont ride back and forth across wet and slippery road markings (including manhole covers). Unless of course a low side is in your plans for the day.

These days the centre of the lane has little to no oil, except in the Philippines. I am not sure how many days of rain they had just had, but they would be aware.

With the clear sight lines, upright stability and momentary contact, I saw no reason why the lines (I am sure they were anti-skid) should not be crossed for a second or more advance warning.

 

[PhilPhilippines]

Yeah, maybe their paint isn't slippery like ours. I don't know if the markings are worse when wet, or when they are first laid down, and all the tiny glass beads are still on the road. I'm guessing they have some damn good rain tires.

Not sure. The paint used is anti-slip, although that does degrade over time.

 

[PhilPhilippines]

Some of that is called "late apexing" to see better.

Yes. We call it "limit point" and Pos 1 gives earlier view and warning on approach to a right hander and vice versa

Crossing the center line, might be fine for a LEO, everyone else gets a citation for that, AND it's fooking stupid. Never, ever cross the center line on a public road unless it's an emergency. Not your space and you're not expected to be there. If you "need" to do that for safely, you're out riding your ability, the road and the conditions. And that's just at 1:39 in to the vid. 'straitening the bend... Lazy MF.

Before straightening the bend they would be using a 100% visual scan to determine that they will not cause another road user to change speed or direction as a result of their actions. Earlier observation of possible hazards leads to earlier preparation.

Unless it's an emergency? I am wondering how you ever overtake Eric?

I'd be beating him with a pipe and asking him if he wants me to 'slow down' or stop. Again, a violation of the traffic code anywhere in the US. You're not on a race track, you're on the street, and he's not running codes and in pursuit. Bad form.

Seems a little excessive.

Failure to obey a traffic control device. Those boys would be dead in a week riding like that in the US on a similar road. Some group of college kids in a tri tone (rust, primer and fading paint), Caddy would wipe them off the road. And any civilian riding like that and witnessed by a LEO would be cited for multiple violations.

This is in the UK. What traffic control device did they ignore?

2 freaking seconds A-hole! Stop tailgating the rider in front of you.

99% of the time the lead rider is in Pos 1 and the other in Pos 3.

And notice the complete lack of the following rider to maintain distance when the leading rider slows at an intersection.

They are both subject to the same observation links, therefore the following rider would be fully aware of the actions of the lead.

"Safely using all of the road" You don't get "all of the road", you get all of your lane. Different country, different rules.

Perfectly safe to use all the road if 100% safe to do so - if it is safe to overtake, it is safe to use all the road, sans vehicle.

Ride your own ride, don't follow the lead rider out into a pass.

Before they attempt an overtake they use the Thirds Rule and have a place to "Land" before they do so. I saw nothing to indicate they did otherwise.

Sloppy, lazy and poor form. Night stick to the shins and no more moto duty for you. This is the difference between training and LEO I can do what you aren't allowed to do training. If you can't stay in your own lane, you don't belong on the street. Car, bike or bicycle. All are required to follow the rules of the road. If I watched this as their boss, both riders would be on foot patrol forever. AND it would be a training video all right, on what not to do for 80% of it. Crap following distance throughout, multiple violations of vehicle code for no reason.

Are you aware that the US send their best and brightest for Roadcraft training? It is recognised worldwide by police forces.

You have 80% of your dry traction in the wet on most anything but slick tires. I rode in the rain for 40+ years almost daily. Traction isn't an issue. Got to hate those California paint lines and wide arrows though. slicker then deer guts on a door knob.

Yes, they are fully aware. UK police will always endeavour to leave 10% in reserve: accellerating, braking, cornering, etc.

There are tid bits of good stuff there. But honestly, if I was riding with those two and witnessed that riding style, I would tell them in clear terms that I would never ride with either of them again, and that they need to take some training classes and grow the hell up and learn to stay in their own lane. If they felt the need to share the lane with opposing traffic, they really should have been running codes. Illegal pass on double line.

You may well be a better rider than them, it is not impossible/improbable. However, they are extremely highly trained, where their mind goes before anything follows.

This is fine for a LEO training vid, but completely unacceptable for a public riding vid. "as a police rider making progress" is a telling statement. A large majority of that behavior would get a civilian rider cited and asked "where's the fire". I was just making progress wouldn't cut it for an answer.

I am not a particularly competent rider (except for my level of observation, etc), but if I was coaching a competent driver and they had driven in the same manner I would have no problem with it, except following distance. The Pos 1 and 3 for bikes is fine as they will brake in a straight line and not come into conflict.

I've ridden with jerks like that. You may think this is harsh, but I really don't care. That's a shit show of bad riding form.

No, I do not think it harsh. Just incorrect, given the level of their training and the different rules in the UK.

 

[ballisticexchris]

The point that most people miss that haven't done long days in the saddle on a regular basis is that this doesn't need to be uncomfortable. The point is to sort your ride so it's not uncomfortable, then find a process for gas stops that works well for you and stick to it every time so it becomes routine.

Do 1000 miles in under 24hrs on a dirt bike and and it's uncomfortable no matter how you slice it. I talked to a guy half my age who was doing a Canada to South America almost all off road (KTM 500EXC). He said he did no more than 300 miles or so a day on his bike. Even on the long pavement hauls.

The biggest challenge as far as comfort is alertness, motor skills, and reflexes. When you start peeling off 1000+ mile days you have to do "bit sleep" stops to rest your brain and body. As you age it's harder to do. A lot of riders want to think they are alert but the fact is reflexes and thinking skills deteriorate when you are in the saddle for 16+ hours. There is no way around it. You can adjust your riding for it but it is there.

You can eat, hydrate, rest, and repeat. It helps but it is in no way going to have you in the condition you would be if you stopped at 500 miles for the day.

 

[PhilPhilippines]

Do 1000 miles in under 24hrs on a dirt bike and and it's uncomfortable no matter how you slice it. I talked to a guy half my age who was doing a Canada to South America almost all off road (KTM 500EXC). He said he did no more than 300 miles or so a day on his bike. Even on the long pavement hauls.

The biggest challenge as far as comfort is alertness, motor skills, and reflexes. When you start peeling off 1000+ mile days you have to do "bit sleep" stops to rest your brain and body. As you age it's harder to do. A lot of riders want to think they are alert but the fact is reflexes and thinking skills deteriorate when you are in the saddle for 16+ hours. There is no way around it. You can adjust your riding for it but it is there.

You can eat, hydrate, rest, and repeat. It helps but it is in no way going to have you in the condition you would be if you stopped at 500 miles for the day.

Absolutely. And that does not change whether it is a bike, car or a truck. High mileage can cause severe fatigue and that affects not only the driver/rider but those they encounter. Obviously the USA has less densely populated roads but it has very high death stats compared to other first world countries. The driving test is very basic, which reflects in the numbers killed.

Strangely, there was a huge push back to the introduction of the tachometer in 2017 - a device known to reduce fatalities. Europe has been extremely proactive in endeavouring to control the amount of deaths. Some countries with more success than others. But most of Europe has been using the tachometer for eons.

 

[Boris]

Some of that is called "late apexing" to see better.

Yes. We call it "limit point" and Pos 1 gives earlier view and warning on approach to a right hander and vice versa

Crossing the center line, might be fine for a LEO, everyone else gets a citation for that, AND it's fooking stupid. Never, ever cross the center line on a public road unless it's an emergency. Not your space and you're not expected to be there. If you "need" to do that for safely, you're out riding your ability, the road and the conditions. And that's just at 1:39 in to the vid. 'straitening the bend... Lazy MF.

Before straightening the bend they would be using a 100% visual scan to determine that they will not cause another road user to change speed or direction as a result of their actions. Earlier observation of possible hazards leads to earlier preparation.

Unless it's an emergency? I am wondering how you ever overtake Eric?

I'd be beating him with a pipe and asking him if he wants me to 'slow down' or stop. Again, a violation of the traffic code anywhere in the US. You're not on a race track, you're on the street, and he's not running codes and in pursuit. Bad form.

Seems a little excessive.

Failure to obey a traffic control device. Those boys would be dead in a week riding like that in the US on a similar road. Some group of college kids in a tri tone (rust, primer and fading paint), Caddy would wipe them off the road. And any civilian riding like that and witnessed by a LEO would be cited for multiple violations.

This is in the UK. What traffic control device did they ignore?

2 freaking seconds A-hole! Stop tailgating the rider in front of you.

99% of the time the lead rider is in Pos 1 and the other in Pos 3.

And notice the complete lack of the following rider to maintain distance when the leading rider slows at an intersection.

They are both subject to the same observation links, therefore the following rider would be fully aware of the actions of the lead.

"Safely using all of the road" You don't get "all of the road", you get all of your lane. Different country, different rules.

Perfectly safe to use all the road if 100% safe to do so - if it is safe to overtake, it is safe to use all the road, sans vehicle.

Ride your own ride, don't follow the lead rider out into a pass.

Before they attempt an overtake they use the Thirds Rule and have a place to "Land" before they do so. I saw nothing to indicate they did otherwise.

Sloppy, lazy and poor form. Night stick to the shins and no more moto duty for you. This is the difference between training and LEO I can do what you aren't allowed to do training. If you can't stay in your own lane, you don't belong on the street. Car, bike or bicycle. All are required to follow the rules of the road. If I watched this as their boss, both riders would be on foot patrol forever. AND it would be a training video all right, on what not to do for 80% of it. Crap following distance throughout, multiple violations of vehicle code for no reason.

Are you aware that the US send their best and brightest for Roadcraft training? It is recognised worldwide by police forces.

You have 80% of your dry traction in the wet on most anything but slick tires. I rode in the rain for 40+ years almost daily. Traction isn't an issue. Got to hate those California paint lines and wide arrows though. slicker then deer guts on a door knob.

Yes, they are fully aware. UK police will always endeavour to leave 10% in reserve: accellerating, braking, cornering, etc.

There are tid bits of good stuff there. But honestly, if I was riding with those two and witnessed that riding style, I would tell them in clear terms that I would never ride with either of them again, and that they need to take some training classes and grow the hell up and learn to stay in their own lane. If they felt the need to share the lane with opposing traffic, they really should have been running codes. Illegal pass on double line.

You may well be a better rider than them, it is not impossible/improbable. However, they are extremely highly trained, where their mind goes before anything follows.

This is fine for a LEO training vid, but completely unacceptable for a public riding vid. "as a police rider making progress" is a telling statement. A large majority of that behavior would get a civilian rider cited and asked "where's the fire". I was just making progress wouldn't cut it for an answer.

I am not a particularly competent rider (except for my level of observation, etc), but if I was coaching a competent driver and they had driven in the same manner I would have no problem with it, except following distance. The Pos 1 and 3 for bikes is fine as they will brake in a straight line and not come into conflict.

I've ridden with jerks like that. You may think this is harsh, but I really don't care. That's a shit show of bad riding form.

No, I do not think it harsh. Just incorrect, given the level of their training and the different rules in the UK.

Well said Phil. I also wanted to reply, but couldn’t be bothered. Thank you for articulating.

 

[Tombstone]

The Two highly trained motocops vid is an embarrassment. Anyone crossing the center line that many times should be stopped and given a sobriety test... Not to mention hugging the center line when unnecessary and opposing traffic has to deal with the riders lack of manners. Good grief!

Although I have to admit I only watched about 4 minutes before I had seen enough to know they are either NOT highly trained, or their just jerks.

 

[PhilPhilippines]

The Two highly trained motocops vid is an embarrassment. Anyone crossing the center line that many times should be stopped and given a sobriety test... Not to mention hugging the center line when unnecessary and opposing traffic has to deal with the riders lack of manners. Good grief!

Although I have to admit I only watched about 4 minutes before I had seen enough to know they are either NOT highly trained, or their just jerks.

They never once caused a vehicle to change speed or direction through their actions. If they were to do so I would agree wholeheartedly. The reason they are crossing the centre line is for superior vision and an earlier indication of what is happening ahead. The position can be slightly over the line or fully offside depending on the situation - BUT it is only done when 100% safe and without causing another motorist to change speed or direction. An earlier indication in your visual scanning process affords earlier response, leading to earlier control on entry.

Do you overtake? And, if you do so, I presume you cross the centre line?

Additionally, with a bike straight it is safer. Class 1 riders take note and use everything they can. So, on an overtake exiting a right hander they would use the camber elevation to accelerate harder than they would on an overtake exiting a left hander, where the camber falls away (unless there is super-elevation).

You may not like it or understand it but it is 100% safe.

As with many countries, the US visited Hendon Proving Ground over the years for training - https://www.police1.com/international/articles/police-driver-training-the-uk-way-HRKPcQQc1P7TXpGE/

However, the lead rider did make one slight error, which he would have been make aware of in the debrief.

The officers are not chosen for their race craft they are chosen for their road craft and application of a system of vehicle control. Their course involves being trained to what many consider to be the highest standards anywhere in the world...which includes behavioral analysis, where any "noble cause" or "red mist" is either tuned out or they do not reach the required level to achieve the Class 1 status for pursuit exemptions: https://www.drivermetrics.com/blog/training-to-reduce-risk-in-police-driving/

 

[MIKE R]

I totally agree with everything PhlPhilippenes has said

The video shows two highly trained riders giving an excellent demonstration of the art of motorcycling as it is laid down in the UK Motorcycle Roadcraft Manual.

Many years ago I used to ride behind 2 police class 1 motorcyclists and it was as if they were joined together with a piece of string. Amazing to watch.

They straightened out the bends as much as possible (as in the video) and due to their road position leant over far less than I had to to maintain the same speed around bends.

I learnt very early on that if they decided to 'go for it' I'd catch them up when they next stopped for coffee. They were way beyond my abilities and I have taken and passed my advanced test twice and was a qualified motorcycle instructor

Mike

 

[ballisticexchris]

I'm with Phil and Mike in regards to the video. Law enforcement training is different in other parts of the world. None of us know what was going on behind the scenes of that training session.

 

[Sierra1]

The US philosophy is to concentrate on slow speed control. Most police motors are used in town, where their size and speed can be used to the best advantage. Police rodeos are where they strut their stuff. There are some states that have state police, or highway patrol motors, but it's not the norm. The only time That I've done high speed training, was at a track. Even the slow speed stuff is not done on public roads, but big parking lots with a gazillion cones. Back in the day, Dallas Motor School was three week long, eight hours a day, with one entire week dedicated to braking. With everything having ABS, I don't know how that has changed the school.

I do know that the Tenere would annihilate a cone course.