Foam Air Filters?

RED CAT

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I am under the impression our North American S10s come with Paper Air Filters but the Austrailian ones come with Foam air filters. Anybody know if the Foam filters are available for sale in North America? Always liked Foam best especially for dirt and dusty conditions. ::001::
 

dcstrom

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Don't think they are available here, but here's the part number if you want to look for them;

http://supertenere1200.com/2011/11/21/super-tenere-parts-from-bali/

I haven't installed yet, and am in two minds - should I a K&N which can go a loooong way between cleanings (and actually filter better with a bit of dirt in them), or the foam filters, which might filter better but need more frequent service? I guess the question is, how frequent should the service be under dusty conditions? I don't have a lot of experience with foam filters - except on dirt bikes where there's only one, and it's small and easy to get at. Cleaning these on the S10 will be a bigger job...
 

avc8130

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I have cleaned enough dirt/dust/grime out of intact tracks AFTER a K&N to know they just aren't for me.

PS: That was on FACTORY K&N oiling...so not MY mistake.

ac
 

markjenn

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Foam certainly has its place on a dirt bike where paper filters would have to be replaced too often to be economically viable, but paper does a much better job of protecting the engine, especially if you're not religious about cleaning/re-oiling foam often. I'd have to be using the S10 like a trail bike before I'd find the tradeoff to foam worthwhile. And never been a fan of K&N - their outlandish claims make their credibility suspect in everything.

- Mark
 

X5

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The K&N and BMC foam filters flow more air for supposidly better performance. The more air that gets thru the more crap also gets thru. For the 90/10 street/dirt among us, the performance difference as opposed to its longevity is the more likely foam attraction.
 

markjenn

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X5 said:
The K&N and BMC foam filters flow more air for supposidly better performance. The more air that gets thru the more crap also gets thru. For the 90/10 street/dirt among us, the performance difference as opposed to its longevity is the more likely foam attraction.
I'd like to see back-to-back dyno runs where foam (or K&N) filter vs. paper filter makes any difference whatsoever on a bike like the S10.

- Mark
 

dcstrom

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My own experience on the Vee is that the K&N filters fine once it clogs up a bit. When fresh and new, there are definitely some particles that get through. However once past that stage it'll go 150000 miles between cleanings.

I discount the performance aspect - for one thing, if any improvement at all, it's only when the filter's clean and not filtering properly. I don't want it to be "clean" - dirt helps it filter. I just want a re-usable filter that filters well, and that I'm not going to have to service every 1000 miles.

There's another brand, similar construction and materials to K&N, the name escapes me at the moment - don't know if they are any better than K&N at filtering?
 

Firefight911

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I'm gonna jump in and then right back out on this one.

If K&N or the like was "all that" the OEMs would have adopted them or something similar long ago.

The restriction is not in the filter, it's in the intact tract and in any modern design vehicle these things are optimized as a balance between performance, usability, and life.

To increase the performance of a vehicle it's not gonna come from a filter. It's gonna come from ending with a small fortune and starting with a big one. Bring your checkbook!

Any, if there are any, performance improvements (laughter ensues) only come when you are in a wide open throttle setting, at best. Duh, if the butterflies aren't wide open then, TAHDAH, there's a restriction present preventing max flow of air in to the motor.

It has been shown by several studies available (you look em up, ive already been down this road years ago) that the flow of a modern paper filter is not restricting an engine from receiving the necessary air flow. It IS, however, capturing a smaller micron particulate size than what these filter types capture.

Life of motor versus false perceived gain as a result of marketing. Marketing winds again.

And I'm out. Let's see how long it takes for this one to go cpletely pear shaped.

3

2

1

GO!


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pluric

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I run K&Ns in the big bores. Figure they have been around forever and you don't
hear about problems. Did an Alaska run on the Strom. Top of the filter looked like
a cow patty with a dead bee accent. The inside was clean and the air box under
the filter was spotless.

I use foam on the small bores that (used to) see more off road. This is the KLR after
dropping into Urique, Copper Canyon Mexico, two days.

 

markjenn

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dcstrom said:
My own experience on the Vee is that the K&N filters fine once it clogs up a bit.
If so, this is completely counter to the way a foam filter typically works.

An oiled-foam filter uses oil-capture impingement as the filtering mechanism. As such the mechanism for particle capture is like a maze where the gaps between the fibers are much bigger than the particle you want to catch, but the depth of the filter means sooner or later particles are likely to hit a fiber. (Think trying to shoot a golf ball through a tree - the tree volume may be 98% air, but that doesn't mean the golf ball has a 98% chance it will make it through.) When a particle hits a fiber, it is caught and retained, but ONLY if the fiber has oil on it.

This is a completely different mechanism from a paper filter where particles are caught by a sieving mechanism. Particles are retained because the gaps in the filter are too small for the particle to fit through.

The problem with oiled foam is that once the filter loads up and the oil is depleted, the particles don't stick anymore. A loaded filter becomes like a paper filter except that the gaps between fibers are about 100x as wide as a paper filter. If you don't religiously stay up with maintenance on oiled foam, it is like having no filter at all. That's not a big deal on a dirt bike where you might clean/re-oil after every ride.

When I read the literature for K&N (after ignoring all their marketing garbage), it sure sounds like they're using the exact same mechanism as a foam filter for particle capture - they just are using multiple layers of cotton fabric rather than foam. I know K&N may say otherwise, and certainly a loaded filter is going to catch gravel, but my technical judgment is that a loaded K&N is a truly lousy filter from an engine protection standpoint with respect to small particles - particles that would be caught easily by a paper filter. And a paper filter "fails safe" - as the filter loads, the gaps between the fibers in the filter become smaller and the filtering efficiency rises (at the expense of greater pressure loss across the filter). IOW, a paper filter will start to suffer a performance loss, but will always protect your engine. A oiled-foam filter slowly losses efficiency while continuing to let your engine breath fine as it self-destructs.

As I said before, I'm not a K&N fan. And I know others swear by them just like some swear by Amsoil oil/filters or STP oil treatment. When a mfg makes outlandish claims for their product, my radar goes on high alert and K&N certainly makes some outlandish claims that are simply not supported by the available objective data or a rigorous technical analysis.

I'm not completely anti- oiled foam or even K&N if you prefer. On a dirt bike, they're the way to go. Of course, I clean the oiled-foam filter on my DRZ almost after every ride int he dirt. You can save some money with oiled filters over paper. But IMO, you better keep up with filter maintenance if you value your motor.

- Mark
 

dcstrom

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Firefight911 said:
I'm gonna jump in and then right back out on this one.
Oh no you don't! Not going to get off that easily mate...

I accept everything you're saying - minimal performance gains, not as good as paper filters - but you don't offer an answer to my question. Which is best to use when you need low-maintenance, re-usable filter? K&N and the like are the only answer really, right?

Like Pluric, I've run a K&N in the Strom all its life - currently 86,000 miles - and still going strong. So if it doesn't filter as well as paper, the Vee can't tell the difference :D

BTW the only reason I'm harping on about this is because I'll be travelling in places where a stock S10 filter is not going to be available. If I was in the US I'd probably stick with stock paper.
 

Firefight911

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Ok, then I would do this;

Go get some Uni Filter foam material or it's equivalent, cut to shape of stock filter element, put in place and run it as a pre filter. You can sometimes cut this slightly larger than stock or leave "tabs" that wrap around paper element and pinch in case/lid of airbox to make sure it doesn't curl or dislodge.

Make two, keep one oiled and ready to go in a bag, swap out and re do each day when in those bad conditions.

As is the case in many circumstances, many people use WAY too much oil. Don't do this. If you get more than a minimal amount of transfer of oil to the stock filter you've used too much oil.


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Firefight911

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Doing it in this fashion allows you to carry a spare and take up next to none of your storage capacity.


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markjenn

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When I tour on my DRZ, I carry two clean/re-oiled foam filters in zip-lock bags. On a mix of 50-50 gravel-dirt/pavement (and either leading or dropping way back if I'm following on dirt), I figure 2-4 days per filter, depending on how dusty it is. If I'm out longer, I'll stop and wash the filters in gas or kerosene and re-oil. Engine oil is not as good as filter oil but will do in a pinch. For many years, it was all that was available.

When I see filters looking like the picture earlier in this thread, I assume they're only catching the huge stuff and some engine longevity is being sacrificed. Engines are pretty tolerant of this sort of thing for short periods and you can mitigate poor air filtration somewhat with more-often oil changes. Poor air filtration is like high blood pressure - something else may kill you before it is a problem, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.

- Mark
 

dcstrom

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Firefight911 said:
Ok, then I would do this;

Go get some Uni Filter foam material or it's equivalent, cut to shape of stock filter element, put in place and run it as a pre filter. You can sometimes cut this slightly larger than stock or leave "tabs" that wrap around paper element and pinch in case/lid of airbox to make sure it doesn't curl or dislodge.

Make two, keep one oiled and ready to go in a bag, swap out and re do each day when in those bad conditions.

As is the case in many circumstances, many people use WAY too much oil. Don't do this. If you get more than a minimal amount of transfer of oil to the stock filter you've used too much oil.


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OK that's more like it! I guess doing it this way you might double the life expectancy of the paper filter?
 

RED CAT

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All good info guys. Thanks. Sounds like the stock paper is fine and lasts longer without maintenance which someone said is a pain on the S10 to get at the air filter, especially compared to my GS12.
 

~TABASCO~

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RED CAT said:
All good info guys. Thanks. Sounds like the stock paper is fine and lasts longer without maintenance which someone said is a pain on the S10 to get at the air filter, especially compared to my GS12.
Nope,... not hard at ALL... you need a 10mm wrench and a Phillips screw driver and about 10-15 minutes... Pretty easy ;)

And over all, the stock filter is pretty good too !
 

colorider

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Firefight911 said:
I'm gonna jump in and then right back out on this one.

<snip>

And I'm out. Let's see how long it takes for this one to go cpletely pear shaped.

3

2

1

GO!


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Alot easier said then done..........

:)
 

X5

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I just changed my stock filter yesterday with a BMC filter. There is a big difference in construction between the two and the BMC quality is rather high. I consciously do not feel the need to justify my purchase/decision.

I don't want to compare and contrast in detail here but that BMC filter clearly flows significantly more air due to its construction. I recall a dense foam sponge on the backside/inside of the stock paper filter, like a noise insulator for the intake! I have not examined the stocker in detail yet but will later today. I was just happy to screw (all seven) that filter box cover back down while holding up the (full) gas tank with my elbow... Fortunately I had the right side cover off for my ECU but both side covers, seat and gas tank need to be removed even before you can get to the airfilter. And don't forget the gas air vent and overflow tubes needing slack!

Thanks for the BMC, service and helpful info Tabasco but compared to my Honda's and even my Harley's, this filter change was a bitch for the non-pro.

Edit: No foam sponge on stocker.
 
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