Life! (corona virus, non informative, non hysterical post)
- Thread starter deftoner
- Start date
US lockdown protests may have spread virus widely, cellphone data suggests
www.theguardian.com
US lockdown protests may have spread virus widely, cellphone data suggests
Devices associated with protesters travelled up to hundreds of miles after rallies where few precautions were taken
www.theguardian.com
First of all, thanks to everyone for keeping to the discussion. It makes mine and CW's job much easier.
Of course, there is the political part of this story, since it is the politicians who lead the countries, and have to make the decisions about how to deal with this pandemic. My personal belief, in both discussions here as well as at all levels of government here in the US is that this is NOT the time for partisanship...
The best analogy I saw recently, was that we are all in this storm together, but we are not all in the same boat. We have members here who have been personally affected by the virus; we have members here who have been personally affected by the economic fallout from the stay at home orders, and we have members who have been mildly inconvenienced. I am a huge Star Wars fan, and I always think about the "certain point of view" scene from Return of the Jedi. We all have our perspectives, biases and filters that color how we see the world, and the more that we understand that about ourselves, the better we will be able to account for that when in conversation with someone else.
As far as this pandemic, flattening the curve was always about saving as many lives as possible by keeping our healthcare system from being overwhelmed. This has also shown us how woefully underprepared the world was for this scenario. Hopefully, much like other crises we have dealt with in the past, this one will help us better prepare for future ones. And we are going to need to be prepared, because even though this virus has killed a lot of people, it could have been far worse if the fatality rates had been much higher...
Of course, there is the political part of this story, since it is the politicians who lead the countries, and have to make the decisions about how to deal with this pandemic. My personal belief, in both discussions here as well as at all levels of government here in the US is that this is NOT the time for partisanship...
The best analogy I saw recently, was that we are all in this storm together, but we are not all in the same boat. We have members here who have been personally affected by the virus; we have members here who have been personally affected by the economic fallout from the stay at home orders, and we have members who have been mildly inconvenienced. I am a huge Star Wars fan, and I always think about the "certain point of view" scene from Return of the Jedi. We all have our perspectives, biases and filters that color how we see the world, and the more that we understand that about ourselves, the better we will be able to account for that when in conversation with someone else.
As far as this pandemic, flattening the curve was always about saving as many lives as possible by keeping our healthcare system from being overwhelmed. This has also shown us how woefully underprepared the world was for this scenario. Hopefully, much like other crises we have dealt with in the past, this one will help us better prepare for future ones. And we are going to need to be prepared, because even though this virus has killed a lot of people, it could have been far worse if the fatality rates had been much higher...
SHUMBA
Well-Known Member
Thank you for taking the time and effort to write something that makes total sense, very well written I might add.
SHUMBA
Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
This is political but Uk politics. Just posting it to show the USA is not alone in how things can be distorted by anyone with an agenda who ever they are. Again its our human nature working against us.
The 'lockdown sceptics' want a culture war, with experts as the enemy. I hope this isnt against the spirit of this great forum. I will accept censorship from the mods if so but am just posting up how it is for us here so people can see we are all un the same boat when it comes down to it.
The 'lockdown sceptics' want a culture war, with experts as the enemy | Peter Geoghegan & Mary Fitzgerald
It’s Brexit all over again for the high-profile contrarians, say Peter Geoghegan and Mary Fitzgerald of openDemocracy
www.theguardian.com
Scary story in the Des Moines Register today about the aircraft carrier. It appears that about 13 sailors:
tested positive
were relocated for 2-3 weeks
tested negative
Returned to duty (along with many others)
And now those 13 are testing positive AGAIN.
I sure hope some test was wrong, either an original false positive, a failed negative, or the month later a false positive.
If these guys did get it twice what does that mean. Sweden is going their way to build herd immunity but that does not work if you aren’t immune once you had it.
What about vaccines?
tested positive
were relocated for 2-3 weeks
tested negative
Returned to duty (along with many others)
And now those 13 are testing positive AGAIN.
I sure hope some test was wrong, either an original false positive, a failed negative, or the month later a false positive.
If these guys did get it twice what does that mean. Sweden is going their way to build herd immunity but that does not work if you aren’t immune once you had it.
What about vaccines?
This just came up here.
London care homes report possible fresh Covid-19 outbreaks
London care homes report possible fresh Covid-19 outbreaks
Residents also testing positive more than 30 days after showing first symptoms
www.theguardian.com
JamesGang
I'm Rick James
This could be some good news...
EricV
Riding, farkling, riding...
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It's difficult to believe that people are still speaking about 'herd immunity' as if it's a real, proven concept with a virus like this. Highly mutate-able and animal RNA based. We have already seen people become infected multiple times all over the world. The aircraft carrier story is one of many. China has reported this, Iceland, Spain, Italy, Greece and many other countries that are doing better testing than the US have reported this as well.
To those that think you can become immune to CV, consider the simple flu. In the US people are vaccinated every year for "the flu". But really they are being given a vaccine that is aimed at 1-3 strains of what is forecast to be the dominant flu viruses to hit that year. Sometimes the forecast is right, sometimes it's not. Sometimes the vaccine helps a little even when it's wrong, because we humans have already been exposed to so many other flu strains over our lifetime.
None of that is the case with CV. There are multiple strains like the flu. But humans don't have prior history of exposure to animal based RNA CV. If you survived the bird flu, SARS, MERES, etc, you may have some antibodies in your system that might help you fight off this CV. That's a small number of people in the world and an even smaller number of people in the US.
Corona Virus is not one virus. CV-19 is just the latest discovered. Our bodies don't know how to fight this. Other issues can make it more difficult, or help the virus get a stronger hold inside us. Heart disease, high blood pressure, (look up beta blockers), diabetes, etc.
The big problems are that so much is unknown, or not being shared with the public. Never mind the lies from all of the governments to their citizens and the contradicting statements. "Wearing a mask doesn't help" A month later, "everyone should wear masks", (both from Dr F). The earlier lie may have been ignorance, or may have been because of the mask shortage and the Government wanting masks to go to professionals, not the average citizens that had less exposure risk.
Wearing a mask is possibly better at protecting the people around you than protecting yourself. It's about the moisture in your breath not projecting at others around you. If they are wearing masks, that helps protect you. It's not so much about what you're breathing in thru the mask. This virus, like nearly all viruses, needs a moist environment to survive any length of time. So it's about what people are breathing out.
Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen or read any clear reports of confirmed contact exposure. (a person getting CV from touching a contaminated hard surface), OTOH, one person exposing dozens or hundreds of others in close proximity is all over the news. One sick person going to church infecting 100+ others. One sick worker infecting 100s of other works at the same plant. There are lots of this kind of report. From early days to today. That's not one person coughing all over everyone. That's one person breathing in and out in the same confined space as others.
We still don't know if all these people testing positive with no symptoms can spread the virus to others or not. And by and large, the far greater number of people are the un-tested. No symptoms, no apparent reason for a test, so they remain unknown. That's what social distancing and masks are attempting to protect the masses from.
Strictly IMHO, even if and when a vaccine is released for public use, I seriously doubt it will be any more successful than the flu vaccine is now. It will help some, not others and it will be a crap shoot against a constantly mutating virus that we have little previous exposure to. Maybe decades from now we'll have some broader immunity. But this isn't polio or chicken pox. You can't eliminate it by vaccinating everyone. At best, you'd only have immunity to one strain of CV. Like the shoe bomber, the one we already saw, not the next one.
To those that think you can become immune to CV, consider the simple flu. In the US people are vaccinated every year for "the flu". But really they are being given a vaccine that is aimed at 1-3 strains of what is forecast to be the dominant flu viruses to hit that year. Sometimes the forecast is right, sometimes it's not. Sometimes the vaccine helps a little even when it's wrong, because we humans have already been exposed to so many other flu strains over our lifetime.
None of that is the case with CV. There are multiple strains like the flu. But humans don't have prior history of exposure to animal based RNA CV. If you survived the bird flu, SARS, MERES, etc, you may have some antibodies in your system that might help you fight off this CV. That's a small number of people in the world and an even smaller number of people in the US.
Corona Virus is not one virus. CV-19 is just the latest discovered. Our bodies don't know how to fight this. Other issues can make it more difficult, or help the virus get a stronger hold inside us. Heart disease, high blood pressure, (look up beta blockers), diabetes, etc.
The big problems are that so much is unknown, or not being shared with the public. Never mind the lies from all of the governments to their citizens and the contradicting statements. "Wearing a mask doesn't help" A month later, "everyone should wear masks", (both from Dr F). The earlier lie may have been ignorance, or may have been because of the mask shortage and the Government wanting masks to go to professionals, not the average citizens that had less exposure risk.
Wearing a mask is possibly better at protecting the people around you than protecting yourself. It's about the moisture in your breath not projecting at others around you. If they are wearing masks, that helps protect you. It's not so much about what you're breathing in thru the mask. This virus, like nearly all viruses, needs a moist environment to survive any length of time. So it's about what people are breathing out.
Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen or read any clear reports of confirmed contact exposure. (a person getting CV from touching a contaminated hard surface), OTOH, one person exposing dozens or hundreds of others in close proximity is all over the news. One sick person going to church infecting 100+ others. One sick worker infecting 100s of other works at the same plant. There are lots of this kind of report. From early days to today. That's not one person coughing all over everyone. That's one person breathing in and out in the same confined space as others.
We still don't know if all these people testing positive with no symptoms can spread the virus to others or not. And by and large, the far greater number of people are the un-tested. No symptoms, no apparent reason for a test, so they remain unknown. That's what social distancing and masks are attempting to protect the masses from.
Strictly IMHO, even if and when a vaccine is released for public use, I seriously doubt it will be any more successful than the flu vaccine is now. It will help some, not others and it will be a crap shoot against a constantly mutating virus that we have little previous exposure to. Maybe decades from now we'll have some broader immunity. But this isn't polio or chicken pox. You can't eliminate it by vaccinating everyone. At best, you'd only have immunity to one strain of CV. Like the shoe bomber, the one we already saw, not the next one.
The one thing I know is that we KNOW almost nothing about this. What is most amazing to me is how it can be so deadly to some, and be totally asymptomatic to others. Viral load??
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Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
TNRyder
Member
Aaaannnddd Im back. I appreciate the impassioned debate. It’s great and we all have a perspective.
What do I believe to be truth? Truth is hard. I believe everything on this thread is true to the extent in which it is reported but often what is reported as being true is not necessarily the truth. It’s almost impossible to introduce a new idea or concept and effect a change of thought patterns because of cognitive dissonance. To fully explain this I as you to turn your attention to Plato’s Cave Allegory. Since we are a motorbike/cycle audience I have selected a cartoon.
To illustrate my claim of power without accountability I offer a comedic argument.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What do I believe to be truth? Truth is hard. I believe everything on this thread is true to the extent in which it is reported but often what is reported as being true is not necessarily the truth. It’s almost impossible to introduce a new idea or concept and effect a change of thought patterns because of cognitive dissonance. To fully explain this I as you to turn your attention to Plato’s Cave Allegory. Since we are a motorbike/cycle audience I have selected a cartoon.
To illustrate my claim of power without accountability I offer a comedic argument.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
AusTexS10
Well-Known Member
Perhaps, in spite of all the preceding debate, there is some common ground on which we can all agree.
TNRyder
Member
Quarantine: a method of controlling people who are sick.
QuaranTyranny: (i just made it up) a method of imposing governmental power to control people including those who are not sick.
I am not a denier that quarantine works, can anyone deny that herd immunity and immune systems are strengthened when exposed to foreign pathogens?
I am a believer that tyranny unchecked also works. I believe we can reduce deaths by tyrannically imposing a lockdown indefinitely for Covid-19. We might even get the rate to zero. But then do we impose the same criteria to those who die of lung cancer by outlawing all tobacco products?
Do we impose tyrannical measures to reduce Motorcycle deaths to zero by motorcycles? No, we MITIGATE the death losses by teaching, training, and utilizing protective equipment.
Did we use tyrannical measures to stop flu deaths? What about suicides? How about drownings?
I don’t deny that Coronavirus is real , I argue that an extended lockdown was unwarranted.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
QuaranTyranny: (i just made it up) a method of imposing governmental power to control people including those who are not sick.
I am not a denier that quarantine works, can anyone deny that herd immunity and immune systems are strengthened when exposed to foreign pathogens?
I am a believer that tyranny unchecked also works. I believe we can reduce deaths by tyrannically imposing a lockdown indefinitely for Covid-19. We might even get the rate to zero. But then do we impose the same criteria to those who die of lung cancer by outlawing all tobacco products?
Do we impose tyrannical measures to reduce Motorcycle deaths to zero by motorcycles? No, we MITIGATE the death losses by teaching, training, and utilizing protective equipment.
Did we use tyrannical measures to stop flu deaths? What about suicides? How about drownings?
I don’t deny that Coronavirus is real , I argue that an extended lockdown was unwarranted.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TNRyder
Member
AusTexS10
Well-Known Member
Interesting that somewhere up the string, someone injected the term denier into the discussion and others have now picked up on it. Interesting in this paarticular discussion because denier is an anagram (different word with the same letters reordered) of diener, which is a morgue assistant. Freudian, who knows? But while we seem to have quite a number of overworked deniers, it's also true that there are also a lot of overworked dieners right now, at least in the US.
Eville Rich
Well-Known Member
It's also hard to confirm exactly where someone gets COVID. The virus seems to take a while to show effect. You can be pretty sure if you are living with someone or have a close acquaintance that gets it and then you get it. And it's always going to be presumptive in the end (a "more likely than not" consideration). Two of my married friends got COVID (recovered) that were presumed to come from one of their set of parents, who also had it and that they regularly socialized with (all made it through to recovery). But surface transmission will be difficult to track due to the many surfaces we come into contact with and the time element for symptoms to show up. So simply because there are no "confirmed" cases of surface transmission doesn't mean it's not happening. There seems to be ample research on the longevity of the virus on different materials and various conditions, so would appear likely it's one of few ways to pick it up.
Eville Rich
Eville Rich
B
ballisticexchris
Guest
If we are doing what we are supposed to it is very easy to narrow down almost exactly where you got it. I know that there are only 3 places I can get the virus. I go to the store once a week, The doctors once a month, and the pharmacy once every two weeks or so. Those are the only places I come in contact with humans. I go to gas stations late at night with no other customers, and I do my crutch walks at 0530 in the morning away from others.
I wear a mask and gloves at all times outside my home, disinfect and wash everything I touch or has been touched including food, stay more than 6' away from humans (except at checkout in the store), wash my hands every single time after I have touched anything that someone else has touched beside me, and never touch my face outside my home.
Rubbing alcohol wipes are my friend. They stay with me and are used constantly. I already know 3 people that have got this virus and one that has died. I take it seriously.
Here is a report on how the virus was supposedly spread in a restaurant in China.
www.businessinsider.com
This picture shows how 9 people in a restaurant got the coronavirus thanks to the placement of an air conditioning unit
According to a scientific paper, restaurant AC boosted the distance that virus particles could travel form an infected diner to other people.
www.businessinsider.com
Tenman
Well-Known Member
There sure is a lot of dead people from this hoax. When it strikes someone close to you. It's an eye opener.
Cantab
Well-Known Member
Nothing unusual with that set up .Here is a report on how the virus was supposedly spread in a restaurant in China.
This picture shows how 9 people in a restaurant got the coronavirus thanks to the placement of an air conditioning unit
According to a scientific paper, restaurant AC boosted the distance that virus particles could travel form an infected diner to other people.