Here come the Chinese

holligl

Find the road less traveled...
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Messages
2,444
Location
IL/AZ
I've been looking at youth ATVs for the grand kids. According to one dealer even the "Japanese" and Canadian/Polaris brands of these are made in China. CFMoto pretty much sets the bar as far as features and price. Discovered another Chinese brand called Kayo. I was surprised at the visual build quality and they are even cheaper than the CFMotos. They appear to have a great CONUS support network. The Suzuki dealer who had them did not even carry the Suzuki Youth ATVs because he would never sell one given the price difference.

A small local independent motorcycle/ATV dealer stocks a bunch of the Chinese brands (plus Zeros and Royal Enfield). All the big brands have been claimed by the big multi-brand chain stores.
 

blitz11

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
328
Location
SW Montana
Asia has a much different view of IP than does the "western world." I learned about this in the early 1980s.

My dad was the chief engineer at Caterpillar for the 943, 953,963, and 973 track-type loaders. Design work started in August 1973 (!) - 51 years ago.

These were the world's first track-type loader with a rear-mounted engine, and "Z-bar" linkage.

Here is the link to the design patent: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/4a/df/37/a525412962ccbb/USD251845.pdf

Serial number 1 came off the line in the early 1980s - it takes a while to design, test, redesign, ramp up for manufacturing (Caterpillar built a new manufacturing facility for these), train factory workers, market, creates a parts cache, and deliver product. Not easy work, but financially and personally rewarding.

In the early mid-1980s, Komatsu introduced their version. Wow! That didn't take long. Caterpillar, of course, bought a few for engineering evaluations.

Cosmetically, a few differences. Functionally, the same. Materials, at that time, weren't as good (steel, hoses, seals, etc.). The Komatsu final drives bolted DIRECTLY onto the Caterpillar - same fittings, same bolt patterns, the whole 9 yards. Take the final drive apart? Same layout, gear ratios, interchangeable parts. That's why it didn't take long. Blatant copy.

There was really nothing Caterpillar could do to protect its IP. What they could do is continue to develop the system, bolster after-sale support, parts availability, and compete on total life cost, not just purchase price. Quality, long service life mattered 45 years ago. They fought back with what they had.

These machines continue in their original format, but with changes you'd expect in 51 years of constant evolution. You can still find 40-year-old machines in service, and you can still buy parts.

After ~8 years of manufacturing in the US (Iowa), production was moved to France. Economic conditions/protections were more favorable in Europe, and for machines needed in the US, it was cheaper to ship from France than to manufacture here.

For a while, quality mattered to those of us in the U.S. Now, it's price. It seems more important to have MORE stuff than GOOD stuff. Personally, I want less stuff, of higher quality. Now that I am in my mid 60s, I look at what I've accumulated, and it is essentially books, motorcycle T-shirts, bicycles, motorcycles, and tools. Having stuff never made me happy. Doing stuff does make me happy. When I'm gone, my kids will easily be able to take what they want and sell the rest. (Younger daughter is also an engineer, and has her eyes on the motorcycles, mill, lathe, and tools. Good for her.) Nothing really to clean out.

You make real money by making things. Shuffling money isn't real money. Stock prices / market capitalization valuations are far from reality, yet those are the metrics which now seem to matter most. (Tesla, I am looking at you.)

As the U.S. cedes its engineering and manufacturing capabilities to countries elsewhere, our standard of living is going to continue to drop. Part of this cessation is the lack of quality education available, starting in grade school, and continuing through university. We've lost our ability and desire to compete. Why isn't early childhood education a realistic option in public schools here? Why can't teachers afford to live in the communities where they teach? This is a HUGE problem here - from grades schools through university.

I taught engineering at for 7 years - I had to quit. The administration is now selling degrees, not making students earn them. We've lowered expectations. Curricula don't keep up with employer needs, and students are no longer held to rigorous standards. 15% of students graduate here with a 4.0 grade point. I graduated 41 years ago with my B.S. and no one in my class graduated with a 4.0. Labs have been replaced with simulation- it's cheaper that way. It's a problem though, because students don't learn how to troubleshoot. Why did the experiment / design fail? They have NO idea. The 4.0 is meaningless outside of academia.

Education quality no longer matters; the new metric is "retention." Pass students regardless of performance, and keep the tuition funds rolling in. I was told that I can't have students working in my home shop because "that will become expected behavior of all faculty." When the engineering dean told students that they didn't have to finish their work and that they were going to pass their capstone course, I signed off.

Sorry for the rant. I worry about are future - the failing of the educational system is a harbinger for our future. It's not pretty.
 

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
16,994
Location
Joshua TX
Sorry for the rant. I worry about are future - the failing of the educational system is a harbinger for our future. It's not pretty.
100%. My 30 yr old D.I.L. was talking the other day about how the "older" generations sometimes refer to them as millennials and complain about how millennials do things. I too have made similar complaints. In her defense, neither she nor either of my kids are the typical example of their ages. But for those that complain about the current generations, you're gonna have to stop and think about how they became that way. They're a product of their raising. The Trophy Generation is coming home to roost. In an effort to make their kids' lives better than what they had, the parents did everything for the kids instead of teaching their kids.

Kids don't want to pay for the degrees/diplomas that they're "earned" but expect to get paid the same amount as 20 yr co-workers. Around here there does seem to be a movement towards technical/vocational schools. 'Cuz yes, education without experience doesn't go too far.
 

Venture

Administrator
Staff member
Founder
Joined
Feb 26, 2010
Messages
2,135
Asia has a much different view of IP than does the "western world." I learned about this in the early 1980s.

My dad was the chief engineer at Caterpillar for the 943, 953,963, and 973 track-type loaders. Design work started in August 1973 (!) - 51 years ago.

These were the world's first track-type loader with a rear-mounted engine, and "Z-bar" linkage.

Here is the link to the design patent: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/4a/df/37/a525412962ccbb/USD251845.pdf

Serial number 1 came off the line in the early 1980s - it takes a while to design, test, redesign, ramp up for manufacturing (Caterpillar built a new manufacturing facility for these), train factory workers, market, creates a parts cache, and deliver product. Not easy work, but financially and personally rewarding.

In the early mid-1980s, Komatsu introduced their version. Wow! That didn't take long. Caterpillar, of course, bought a few for engineering evaluations.

Cosmetically, a few differences. Functionally, the same. Materials, at that time, weren't as good (steel, hoses, seals, etc.). The Komatsu final drives bolted DIRECTLY onto the Caterpillar - same fittings, same bolt patterns, the whole 9 yards. Take the final drive apart? Same layout, gear ratios, interchangeable parts. That's why it didn't take long. Blatant copy.

There was really nothing Caterpillar could do to protect its IP. What they could do is continue to develop the system, bolster after-sale support, parts availability, and compete on total life cost, not just purchase price. Quality, long service life mattered 45 years ago. They fought back with what they had.

These machines continue in their original format, but with changes you'd expect in 51 years of constant evolution. You can still find 40-year-old machines in service, and you can still buy parts.

After ~8 years of manufacturing in the US (Iowa), production was moved to France. Economic conditions/protections were more favorable in Europe, and for machines needed in the US, it was cheaper to ship from France than to manufacture here.

For a while, quality mattered to those of us in the U.S. Now, it's price. It seems more important to have MORE stuff than GOOD stuff. Personally, I want less stuff, of higher quality. Now that I am in my mid 60s, I look at what I've accumulated, and it is essentially books, motorcycle T-shirts, bicycles, motorcycles, and tools. Having stuff never made me happy. Doing stuff does make me happy. When I'm gone, my kids will easily be able to take what they want and sell the rest. (Younger daughter is also an engineer, and has her eyes on the motorcycles, mill, lathe, and tools. Good for her.) Nothing really to clean out.

You make real money by making things. Shuffling money isn't real money. Stock prices / market capitalization valuations are far from reality, yet those are the metrics which now seem to matter most. (Tesla, I am looking at you.)

As the U.S. cedes its engineering and manufacturing capabilities to countries elsewhere, our standard of living is going to continue to drop. Part of this cessation is the lack of quality education available, starting in grade school, and continuing through university. We've lost our ability and desire to compete. Why isn't early childhood education a realistic option in public schools here? Why can't teachers afford to live in the communities where they teach? This is a HUGE problem here - from grades schools through university.

I taught engineering at for 7 years - I had to quit. The administration is now selling degrees, not making students earn them. We've lowered expectations. Curricula don't keep up with employer needs, and students are no longer held to rigorous standards. 15% of students graduate here with a 4.0 grade point. I graduated 41 years ago with my B.S. and no one in my class graduated with a 4.0. Labs have been replaced with simulation- it's cheaper that way. It's a problem though, because students don't learn how to troubleshoot. Why did the experiment / design fail? They have NO idea. The 4.0 is meaningless outside of academia.

Education quality no longer matters; the new metric is "retention." Pass students regardless of performance, and keep the tuition funds rolling in. I was told that I can't have students working in my home shop because "that will become expected behavior of all faculty." When the engineering dean told students that they didn't have to finish their work and that they were going to pass their capstone course, I signed off.

Sorry for the rant. I worry about are future - the failing of the educational system is a harbinger for our future. It's not pretty.
Lots of great points that I agree with.

1. The US should have dealt with the disregard for IP a long time ago. Tariffs probably. The fact that we didn't is why I said in an earlier post that our long-term purchasing decisions were made for us long ago. Manufacturing will always gravitate towards the lowest production cost.

2. Grade inflation - yep, totally real. Especially in grad school programs that are 90+% employer funded. Nobody gets below a B, maybe a C if the person really screwed up. Got to keep that money flowing in.
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
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Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,807
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Damascus, MD
What I’m seeing is that remote everything and the COVID years destroyed the self confidence and ability to think on their feet for the now mid 20s college group. They just don’t understand why things and people are so tough once they entered the work force. Unless they just came out of the military and as a result they really don’t have the connection or loyalty to their employers that is normal for people who entered the work force before 2020.
 

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
16,994
Location
Joshua TX
Don't underestimate how much damage was done by overhelpful parents doing everything for their kids in their attempt for their kids having a better life than they did. And it's still going on.
 
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