Who doesn't do valve checks, and have there been issues?

bnschroder

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Looks like I started something almost as contentious as an oil thread ;D . BTW - I think I am going to try Rotella T4 next time since shifting definitely seems clunky with T6.

I would love to hear if anybody didn't do valve checks on an S10 and then actually ran into the well documented issues that can arise (poor compression, burnt exhaust valves, top-end rebuild due to destroyed valve seats), and at what point. I am not planning on trashing and selling the bike, especially after leisurely completing my first 2 Iron Butt distances. It's going to stay.
 

ace50

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RCinNC said:
You already know the potential problems of a valve that's too far out of adjustment; flame cutting in the valve seat, loss of compression, damaged cylinder head.

You're an engineer, as you say; so what part of engineering allows you to arrive at an informed opinion about failure rates on a device by shouting into a room, "hey, who has had this problem?". Even if you confine it to just Super Teneres (and not every motorcycle on the road that has shim under bucket valves), do you know how many are on the road right now? Do you know how many have required adjustment at the first, second, third, etc valve check intervals? Do you know the point at which the clearance on a valve allows the possibility of flame cutting? You already know that valves do wear out of their adjustment range during use, just based on posts on here from guys whose valves have needed adjustment.

You've formulated an opinion already, based on zero data: "Sounds like there are a lot of people without doing a scheduled check that haven't had those problems". You're basing your already formulated opinion on....what? 16 responses (including your own) from 10 members (including you) on a forum that you have no way of knowing if it's even representative of the total ownership of Super Teneres (or the total ownership of all motorcycles with shim under bucket valve design). If one guy responds and says his valve seats were damaged, what then? Does that change your opinion? Have you decided how many reports of failure from an unreliable data set will allow you to form a new opinion? Is that how engineering works now?
Really!, I just asked a question. And haven't received a response to the positive toward actually needing the recommended service intervals. (Problems because of) You apparently don't even know what 'based on zero data' means. Have you even read this thread? There is data already posted! That's what started the thread!

This is a discussion site. Or maybe you think it should be policed....
 

nondairycreamer

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If the exhaust valves tighten up over a certain period, leading to an inadequate closing of the valves, therefore leaking, would a leak down test be an adequate test for this? Only as an indicator of a too tight valve and further testing (lash measurements).
 
R

RonH

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I do my own because as silly as it sounds I actually enjoy working on a motorcycle and getting the satisfaction it still runs (usually) when I'm done fixing something that really wasn't broken to begin with. If I had to rely on a dealer I would have to give that some serious thought. Assuming they actually do the work:
50% or better chance various bolts either stripped, or not tightened.
50% or better chance some damage, scratches on paint ect.
50% or better chance when you get it back, things that were working fine before no longer work
10% chance the entire motorcycle is ruined.
25% chance whatever work they did was done completely wrong and engine is worse off than it was before.
Only work I let dealers do is warranty, and thankfully on the GL1800 and Super Tenere, that is zero.
That's my experience at least over the years.
 

RCinNC

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ace50 said:
Really!, I just asked a question. And haven't received a response to the positive toward actually needing the recommended service intervals. (Problems because of) You apparently don't even know what 'based on zero data' means. Have you even read this thread? There is data already posted! That's what started the thread!

This is a discussion site. Or maybe you think it should be policed....
I don't think it should be policed at all. It IS a discussion thread, and I posted a viewpoint; you've sure seem like you've already formed an opinion about this, when you made the statement "How many people have had those problems? If you can't find any or there are none, you don't have a leg to stand on. Sounds like there are a lot of people without doing a scheduled check that haven't had those problems.". If that's your starting point, then it's not data looking for, it's confirmation. I'll concede your point about zero data; what I should have said was "zero meaningful data". You asked how many problems could be attributed to tight valves and you got good data from both Paul466 and WJBertrand. And then you proceed to ignore that data because it doesn't fit your confirmation bias, when you told them "How many people have had those problems? If you can't find any or there are none, you don't have a leg to stand on." The fact that they don't have a specific account of a burned valve seat doesn't negate that could be the end result of a tight valve. They DO have a leg to stand on, as far as the data they provided.

And as far as asking a forum about it, what does it prove (and some sort of proof is what it seems like you're looking for)? If nobody chimes in that they've never burned a valve, is that reliable data from which you form a conclusion about how necessary it is to follow a valve adjustment interval? The absence of specific instances isn't data, it's meaningless, because there may be a bunch of people out there who've had burned valves and never saw or responded to this thread. There could be a bunch of S10 owners out there who've burned a valve who aren't even members of this forum, and can't respond to your question. Now what if five guys do respond that they burned a valve; how meaningful is that information, unless you actually know how many shim under bucket valve systems are under consideration, compared to how many of them have skipped their valve check intervals, compared to how many of them have suffered a burned valve after skipping their valve check interval? If five out of ten failed, it's horrible; if five out of 10,000 failed, it's negligible. There could be so few examples of burned valves out there that it makes a valve check virtually useless, but you're never going to form an accurate opinion either way by looking for info about a failure rate this manner.

I'm not convinced that the valve check intervals are simply an arbitrary number that's made up out of thin air by Yamaha engineers, unless there's a Yamaha engineer (or any automotive engineer) here that'll confirm that. In the absence of data, I lean towards the people who at least presumably have actual data; the guys who designed and built the engine. They've come up with 26,000 mile intervals; how do you dispute that, unless you've conducted your own rigorous testing?

I'm not busting balls, much as it may seem that way. I'm genuinely interested too in whether or not anyone has skipped their valve check and suffered something like a damaged valve seat. But I'm also just as interested in accurate information, as opposed to anecdotal accounts on a forum, and there's no way to get an accurate picture of how often a valve gets damaged from lack of maintenance by asking the question in a forum and depending on self initiated responses for your data. If no one responds that they ever burned a valve, that proves pretty much....nothing.

Everyone has to follow their own head about maintenance. But in case anyone ever looks at this thread and decides "hey, I don't need to worry about this, because no one said they ever had any issues when they skipped a valve check", they should also be aware that information might not be all that meaningful. You could go for the life of your bike without doing a valve check and never experience a problem, and I'm not even saying you should do a valve check, or even that I personally would do one; only that random responses in a forum thread don't paint a picture with any accuracy of how necessary the valve check is.
 

Ramseybella

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We need to go camping drink some beer eat steak!! ::008:: ::003:: ::020::
This gets any farther ahead of itself, Father Dante will pull the plug on it. >:D

Besides if it hits 120k with no valve issues, trade in value on this steed will be less that a Schwinn 10 speed bicycle.
 

~TABASCO~

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I've been on this forum for awhile. I've also worked on a few Teneres (for people that don't know me, probably several hundred) I've read and thought about different perspectives that people have. I've thought about a few very quick thoughts that come to my head. Everyone can surely do anything they like or want/don't want to do. But after working on so many, and not passing on the info I have learned, this doesn't sit well with me. So, Ill quickly go over a few things that I've thought about. In no particular order.

If you don't do a valve check the motor will blow up. Not that I've ever seen
If you don't do the check you will melt valves and pistons. Not that I've ever seen
If you don't do the valve check you will loose performance.. Probably so little no one will ever feel it
If you don't do the valve check you will loose MPG. Probably not and very hard to scientifically determine that might be the cause of the loss of 1mpg

Im sure there are many more " what if's " but Ive not come across any major issues by not doing the valve check. Knocking / fire / melting parts / bad MPG / etc, etc... It might run a little rough and the throttle wont be as sharp.




I myself am not one to let this job just go un noticed. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing my bike had wacked out valve clearances. And trust me, I've seen some CRAZY knocked out valves. Ive performed a valve check on many, many Teneres and there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason for why some are out, some are not and some are really bad, and others are out, but not bad. I fully understand that the mechanical aspect of doing this job is to difficult for some. Other people don't want or cant afford for a shop to perform this job. I think that just about everyone, even with the help of a friend can CHECK the valves. At least know if your "OK". At least then you know your OK or semi OK. Ive checked bikes before they are WAY out. Does this mean they are about to blow up? Being a Yamaha, probably not. Its just really nice to know that your taking care of a $6K+ engine. Its not hard to check them. (and anyone can call me and I will be happy to walk though any part of the process with you, I want to help, just let me know)


I've also found in my experience that its about 50/50 % chance you have valve(s) out at the first 25K miles

I think its closer to 75/25 % you will have valves out at the 50K miles

The % lowers at the 75K miles back to about 50/50

And by the time your at 100K your pretty good, probably 10% one or two might be out.

This is a VERY subjective "percentage rate" on my part. My point is, what I find is the first two maybe three are inportant. Probably the 50K is the most.


I WOULD suggest people check there valves, Ive done to many of these checks and have seen a few with some really crazy valve specs. Its just good to know.




Also, it made me smile when someone brought up Paul and Nicks bikes. They have full support from Yamaha. They are given free bikes. They get free service & parts. They might be 'compensated' by Yamaha? Nick didnt do a valve check, he was 'racing' the clock. And if the engine burned to the ground, you and I might not know anything about it after the fact. That was great marketing. On Pauls bike its probably a similar story. I dont know if he got the valves checked or not. But if someone knows he never got the valves check that DOES NOT mean the bike was in the best shape it could mechanically be in. Yamaha might have told him not to, so they could look at an engine with 150K miles and no checks. Are you willing to take the risk? Do you get a free bike, service, support, parts ?


I know for me, I dont get free bikes, I dont get free maintenance, I dont get free parts. I want my bike to work the best it can,so I do the maintenance. I would suggest the valves get checked, just to keep an eye ball on them.






This soap box is really tall up here, im getting scared this high up... its time to step down off this thing...... LOL :) Does anyone know the best oil to use from Wal-Mart, Ive been told, motor-hose...motor-speed....motor-crafts..... just let me know LOLOLOLO
 

Paul466

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Well put! As always Tabasco. To me adv bike is about reliability so I can have calm mindset when I’m in the middle of the Rockies knowing my bases are covered , preventive maintenance was drilled into me when I raced MX, if I know I did everything %100 to prepare for a race and something goes wrong it’s an accident, if I neglected something and got hurt because of it,I would never forgive myself.
 

Ramseybella

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~TABASCO~ said:
I've been on this forum for awhile. I've also worked on a few Teneres (for people that don't know me, probably several hundred) I've read and thought about different perspectives that people have. I've thought about a few very quick thoughts that come to my head. Everyone can surely do anything they like or want/don't want to do. But after working on so many, and not passing on the info I have learned, this doesn't sit well with me. So, Ill quickly go over a few things that I've thought about. In no particular order.

If you don't do a valve check the motor will blow up. Not that I've ever seen
If you don't do the check you will melt valves and pistons. Not that I've ever seen
If you don't do the valve check you will loose performance.. Probably so little no one will ever feel it
If you don't do the valve check you will loose MPG. Probably not and very hard to scientifically determine that might be the cause of the loss of 1mpg

Im sure there are many more " what if's " but Ive not come across any major issues by not doing the valve check. Knocking / fire / melting parts / bad MPG / etc, etc... It might run a little rough and the throttle wont be as sharp.




I myself am not one to let this job just go un noticed. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing my bike had wacked out valve clearances. And trust me, I've seen some CRAZY knocked out valves. Ive performed a valve check on many, many Teneres and there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason for why some are out, some are not and some are really bad, and others are out, but not bad. I fully understand that the mechanical aspect of doing this job is to difficult for some. Other people don't want or cant afford for a shop to perform this job. I think that just about everyone, even with the help of a friend can CHECK the valves. At least know if your "OK". At least then you know your OK or semi OK. Ive checked bikes before they are WAY out. Does this mean they are about to blow up? Being a Yamaha, probably not. Its just really nice to know that your taking care of a $6K+ engine. Its not hard to check them. (and anyone can call me and I will be happy to walk though any part of the process with you, I want to help, just let me know)


I've also found in my experience that its about 50/50 % chance you have valve(s) out at the first 25K miles

I think its closer to 75/25 % you will have valves out at the 50K miles

The % lowers at the 75K miles back to about 50/50

And by the time your at 100K your pretty good, probably 10% one or two might be out.

This is a VERY subjective "percentage rate" on my part. My point is, what I find is the first two maybe three are inportant. Probably the 50K is the most.


I WOULD suggest people check there valves, Ive done to many of these checks and have seen a few with some really crazy valve specs. Its just good to know.




Also, it made me smile when someone brought up Paul and Nicks bikes. They have full support from Yamaha. They are given free bikes. They get free service & parts. They might be 'compensated' by Yamaha? Nick didnt do a valve check, he was 'racing' the clock. And if the engine burned to the ground, you and I might not know anything about it after the fact. That was great marketing. On Pauls bike its probably a similar story. I dont know if he got the valves checked or not. But if someone knows he never got the valves check that DOES NOT mean the bike was in the best shape it could mechanically be in. Yamaha might have told him not to, so they could look at an engine with 150K miles and no checks. Are you willing to take the risk? Do you get a free bike, service, support, parts ?


I know for me, I dont get free bikes, I dont get free maintenance, I dont get free parts. I want my bike to work the best it can,so I do the maintenance. I would suggest the valves get checked, just to keep an eye ball on them.






This soap box is really tall up here, im getting scared this high up... its time to step down off this thing...... LOL :) Does anyone know the best oil to use from Wal-Mart, Ive been told, motor-hose...motor-speed....motor-crafts..... just let me know LOLOLOLO
"Does anyone know the best oil to use from Wal-Mart, Ive been told, motor-hose...motor-speed....motor-crafts..... just let me know LOLOLOLO."
LLOLOLO!! You left out Shell T6, been working for me TABASCO.. :-*
Soap Box, High Horse to Bullhorn yes agree.
 

Madhatter

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I am a little past the recommended first valve check , everything seems fine , but I don't have xray vision , so whats really going on in there. based on what I'm reading here not to much to worry about on being a little past inspection . maybe nothing to worry about if one is quite a bit past inspection . but like the bank robber in dirty harry movie " I got's to know " .... at least once in its life.... good to know it will not grenade at 26501 miles , and that I just paid off the bike and plan on riding it for some time to come , its really about how much and who I trust to do the job than anything else .... sometimes money is tight for some and you put off doing what needs to be done , good to know we have some forgiveness built into this motor . how much ? that would be the chance you risk by not checking or waiting ... I'm at 29k plan on having it inspected at 30k.... we will see , and fingers crossed every thing is well ........
 

bmac

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~TABASCO~ said:
I've also worked on a few Teneres (for people that don't know me, probably several hundred)

I've also found in my experience that its about 50/50 % chance you have valve(s) out at the first 25K miles

I think its closer to 75/25 % you will have valves out at the 50K miles

The % lowers at the 75K miles back to about 50/50

And by the time your at 100K your pretty good, probably 10% one or two might be out.

This is a VERY subjective "percentage rate" on my part. My point is, what I find is the first two maybe three are inportant. Probably the 50K is the most.


I WOULD suggest people check there valves, Ive done to many of these checks and have seen a few with some really crazy valve specs. Its just good to know.
Very helpful! Thanks for posting!
 

ace50

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I was going to respond to RCinNC, but I don't want to waste any more of my time with that.

I'm more than capable of doing my own valve adjustment, working on my own crap my whole life. Getting older now and am becoming less tolerant,
especially of engine designs that are a pain to work on. After doing my ZRX1100 valves makes most other bikes a pain. Why can't all be that easy!
And with twice as many valves! That's one reason I wanted a Versys1K. Love those engines! Friend talked me into the S10.
It's shaft drive makes it hard to get rid of now. Chains are a pain.

I have had a couple issues recently of being is Sport mode, in traffic, just a little scary at times with that abrupt throttle.
Yes, I do keep it in T most of the time in traffic. Just need to get that damn flash done, when I can release the funds to do so. :mad:
 

Blind Squirrel

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How hard is it to do a valve check? Is there a pictorial/how to on valve checks? I poked around and did a search; nothing jumped out at me.
 

Ramseybella

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Some will say Easy and others will say it's a PITA needing to be an Octopus to get in there and such.
In short if you in my case don't have small Burger King hands and are not confident enough towards attacking the big mechanical side of maintenance or repair.
I would pay someone who is do it.
It's one of those engineered on computer pieces neatly and tightly tucked away under the frame with little regards for the mechanic that will work on it..
But that's just me thoughts.
[smg id=3470 type=full align=center caption="giphy"]
 

GearheadGrrrl

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My 1st bike with shim over bucket valve adjustment was my BMW F800S with specified 12k miles checks. While under the 36k warranty I checked at 12k and 24k, everything within spec. Lengthened the intervals and checked again at 24k and 72k, still within spec. It's notable that BMW says the drive belt needs replacing every 24k too, at 74k I'm still on the original. I suspect BMW sets these excessively short service intervals to cover their butts in a worst case usage scenario and too increase parts and service revenue.

At 26k the S10s valve check interval is a bit more reasonable, and in some worse case scenarios they might need adjustment. I checked mine around 26k, as inspected still in spec. I'm at 46k now and will check the valves again at 52k, probably will still be in spec again. But I've got to dig in almost as deep to replace the plugs, so may as well check the valves too. Makes a good project for a rainy or cold day anyways...
 

eemsreno

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I checked mine around the first 26,000. all fine.
At around 64,000 I checked and adjusted the exit valves. [they were on the Tight side]
At around 110,000 I put in a new cam chain and the valves were all perfect still.
I'm at around 179,000 miles now and will probably check them again this winter. maybe not.
My 2017 only has 12,000 on it but I probably won't take a look in there until around 50,000.
I'd rather ride than work on stuff.
 

AlsoRan

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For those that have had their valves adjusted, can you let us know the amount that they were out of spec.?
 

Bigbore4

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AlsoRan said:
For those that have had their valves adjusted, can you let us know the amount that they were out of spec.?
I did mine @ 30k miles. All exhaust were .001" to .0015" out of spec on the tight side and were adjusted. One intake was a real push to get the feeler in so I called it tight and adjusted it as well. @ 60k miles all were in spec. I probably will not check again until 100k or more miles. Currently sitting around 74K.

FWIW my Feejr was in spec the 2 times I have done it. No adjustments needed as yet.
 

steve68steve

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Speaking to the maintenance interval itself:

1. Some think the designers/ OEM knows best and everything they do is calculated down to the nth degree.

2. Some think it's all about the bean-counters. Tight maintenance intervals are just a profit center (racket) for the dealerships. ...or maybe that the designers/ OEM just pulls a number out of their butts.

Many years ago, I was a mechanical engineering student. An exam question was - given material properties (strength, weight, yield, etc.) - what diameter must the landing gear struts be to safely complete 100,000 landings before metal fatigue requires replacement.

Point: the fatigue failure of metal is a science. It's known, calculable, and repeatable (altho does not account for manufacturing defects). There's also a long history of industry standards, field experience with similar models, statistics, etc. This makes the case for item 1, above.

Profitability is always a concern. Legal exposure is a consideration, so they are motivated to require keeping the machine well-running to avoid failures which could lead to lawsuits. They also need to keep the dealerships profitable. So, very short maintenance intervals are a no-brainer, right? This speaks to item 2, above. Except that if they're too short, they communicate a possible reliability problem, design flaw, or high cost of ownership to the end customer, which kills sales.

So the reality is that these sides pull on each other until some balance is achieved. If a competitor has maintenance interval X, maybe Marketing wants theirs 1.2X just to look more reliable. Sales want it 2X. If dealerships are complaining about profitability, maybe Accounting wants to make the interval 0.8X to help. If field failures are happening, maybe Engineering want to make it .5X. A decision is reached.


So technically, both biases are probably wrong but the truth really DOES lie somewhere between the extremes of "never" and "always."
 
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