What do we now think of the bike

So now you've got one how well does it stack up?

  • It surpasses my expectations

    Votes: 779 56.2%
  • It's exactley what I thought it would be

    Votes: 513 37.0%
  • It's not quite what I thought it would be

    Votes: 88 6.3%
  • It's nothing like I thought it would be

    Votes: 6 0.4%

  • Total voters
    1,386

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
14,812
Location
Joshua TX
Today I was riding and shifting without the clutch, and thinking how smooth this bike is. It got me to thinking of all the people that complain about the throttle response, and it came to me. If the ECU is so "on/off", why do we not feel the "jerkiness/snatchiness" when the cruise control is engaged? I mean the ECU is taking the place of your right hand(s). It should feel the same under ECU control. or human control. But it doesn't. Yes, the ECU knows exactly how much fuel the motor needs to operate correctly. Which also means that a human should be able do the same.

Most of us started riding wa-a-ay before EFI. We were used to carbs. We developed muscle memory for carbs. (the older we are the more memory we have) So when EFI came along, and not all EFI is the same, we kept trying to use the throttle with all that carb muscle memory. Which, obviously, doesn't work. And also, as we get older, we become more stubborn, which results in "it can't be me, has to be the bike, 'cuz I'm a great rider".

If the ECU can do it, and the minority group of us can do it . . . . everybody should be able to do it. I'm just an average Joe, so I initially thought that maybe my bike was different, that my throttle was smoother. Then I realized that some of my throttle smoothness, was actually due to clutch smoothness. That I was using my left hand to help control what my right hand was making the bike do. A person can not learn their bike if they don't ride it . . . . frequently . . . . regularly. Use it, or lose it. Skill, at anything, is perishable. I'm not picking on Scrambler, I actually agree with almost all of his first impressions, but he rode his bike once and decided it needed to be "flashed". There have even been some here that have decided to "flash" their bike before they even sit on it.

I haven't ridden near as many bikes that a lot of y'all have . . . . but I know a great bike when I ride it. The Tenere is my favorite ever . . . . as is.
 

Scrambler007

Active Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
114
Location
Canada
Most of us started riding wa-a-ay before EFI. We were used to carbs. We developed muscle memory for carbs. (the older we are the more memory we have) So when EFI came along, and not all EFI is the same, we kept trying to use the throttle with all that carb muscle memory. Which, obviously, doesn't work. And also, as we get older, we become more stubborn, which results in "it can't be me, has to be the bike, 'cuz I'm a great rider".
Just for a bit of context, my first bike was a PW50 when I was 5 ;) I later had a KX250 and then went to road bikes and a few of them were carburated bikes (2 X triumph Scrambler, KLR650, etc) and many didn't even have ABS. My other current bike is a 91 Honda Nighthawk and with my gf on the back she often said it felt like it was an automatic bike because of how smooth it felt between gears (carburators, chain drive and cable clutch). I can even shift that bike up AND down without using the clutch.

I've ridden over 300000km on over 150 different street bikes, I can tell you muscle memory or not, the throttle on my ST is not what I would consider smooth. Is it bad enough to go straight to an ECU reflash, no. That's why I'll give it some time (this was really my first impressions after 30km), but I can certainly see why so many talk about the snatchiness of the throttle, as out of all the bikes I've tried, it's easily in the top 5 of snatchiest throttles I've experienced (and keep in mind this is my bike, maybe not all are exactly the same). :cool:
 

SuckSqueezeBangBlow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Messages
370
Location
Whitby, Ontario
I just went on my first ride on my new 2021 ST. Here are my initial impressions (I've owned over 20 bikes and have tried over 150 bikes, my last bike being a 2019 Africa Twin):

WARNING: I'm brutally honest, no filter, just telling it like it is after my first ride on the bike.

- Cruise control is such an underrated feature, works great.

- 12V socket included from the factory...more than we can say about many premium bikes out there.

- Heated grips work great (though I wish there was a button for it instead of having to go in the menu).

- There's quite a bit of play in the throttle grip (really doesn't feel premium like on other brands) and the throttle response is pretty on/off which is exaggerated by the driving shaft. Touring mode is kind of boring and still a bit snatchy, Sport mode more enjoyable in terms of power, but snatchiness is worse). I've owned many bikes, many of which people in the forums complained about the on/off throttle (like the FZ-09) and for me it really wasn't a problem, but the ST feels super snatchy compared to the FZ09. My Africa Twin though peppier, had a much smoother throttle response.

- I'm 6'1" and the ergos are surprisingly good out of the box. I usually have to customize everything, and so far, I don't think I'll change much.

- I was expecting the windscreen to be horrendous after watching all the reviews, but its not worse than the stock Africa Twin windscreen, actually, it's much better (at least under 100km/h). Set at the highest level + ear plugs, I should be quite comfortable.

- The windscreen mechanism is the worse one I've ever seen, I mean ever (only thing worse would be non-adjustable), hard to comprehend how Yamaha engineers would put that on a production bike after over a decade of production.

- The reflections in the dash can be quite bad at times, and dash looks quite dated.

- I love how Yamaha designed the side panels to be removed by just turning the hallen bolt half a turn or so, super quick to remove and re-install and you never lose a bolt (much better designed than the plastics on the Africa Twin.

- I'm expected Yamaha reliability, which is second to none.

- Probably one of the cheapest bikes to insure.

- Low maintenance, valve check interval is almost twice as long as on the Africa Twin.

- I won't miss cleaning and greasing a chain.

- Not having the option to turn off the rear ABS is a bad idea on an adventure bike meant to see some dirt.

So there you go my brutally honest first impression. I'll see once I put more mileage on the bike how I feel about it, but for now I'd say I'm not disappointed, nor am I over the moon with it, somewhere in the middle. I'm sure reflashing the ECU would greatly improve the bike, but I'll wait to see if I want to put more money on it before I do.
Totally agree with you on all of the above. The Reflash made a massive difference to the twitchy throttle. I was going to sell mine and the person that reflashed it asked me to wait until after he did that and a dyno tune, have to say I was glad I waited. It was that much of a change. Turning off ABS off road is not a huge deal as you can turn off Traction control and that is a much bigger deal to me, although it would be nice to have the option to turn it off or at least reduce the involvement. I did add the Helibar risers and I found they work great, could I have lived without them? Probably, but they just made it much more comfortable. I put a Madstad windscreen on it right away so I can't comment on the original setup. My biggest issue is with the kickstand, I hate it, like really really hate it. A few other little annoying things but overall a good bike, and totally agree with you on the service intervals, shaft drive and reliability!
 

Scrambler007

Active Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
114
Location
Canada
Totally agree with you on all of the above. The Reflash made a massive difference to the twitchy throttle. I was going to sell mine and the person that reflashed it asked me to wait until after he did that and a dyno tune, have to say I was glad I waited. It was that much of a change. Turning off ABS off road is not a huge deal as you can turn off Traction control and that is a much bigger deal to me, although it would be nice to have the option to turn it off or at least reduce the involvement. I did add the Helibar risers and I found they work great, could I have lived without them? Probably, but they just made it much more comfortable. I put a Madstad windscreen on it right away so I can't comment on the original setup. My biggest issue is with the kickstand, I hate it, like really really hate it. A few other little annoying things but overall a good bike, and totally agree with you on the service intervals, shaft drive and reliability!
I told my gf I'd give the bike a year and then decide if I want to reflash it next winter or just sell it. But I don't think the throttle response alone would make me want to sell it, just one of the first things I've noticed. What part of the kickstand don't you like?
 

SuckSqueezeBangBlow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Messages
370
Location
Whitby, Ontario
I told my gf I'd give the bike a year and then decide if I want to reflash it next winter or just sell it. But I don't think the throttle response alone would make me want to sell it, just one of the first things I've noticed. What part of the kickstand don't you like?
For the $250 or $300 it costs for the reflash I would do it to give the bike a fair shot. I was very hesitant to get it done but super glad I did. Riding through dirt it was hard to control since it was so jumpy, felt like it was either all on or all off. Also changed the modes quite a bit, touring is fine but Sport is just that. With the kickstand I always have a difficult time putting it down when I come to a stop. I am used to just taking my heal and sliding it down but my foot always gets caught on the foot pegs. Plus it is at an odd angle I find, stands far to upright for what I am used to.
 

Jlq1969

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
1,749
Location
Argentina
Again for an adventure bike, requiring premium gas isn't the best of ideas. They advertise the bike as the best choice to travel around the globe, but not only is premium gas not available everywhere, there's no reason to design the engine to run on premium gas when you putting out less than 100HP to the rear wheel out of a 1200cc engine. My Africa Twin was optimized to run on regular gas, so was my FZ-8 and many other bikes
You have a confusion there. Along with the Honda AT, the S10 is one of those with the lowest compression ratio. In the case of the S10, the use of premium gasoline is not related to a possible detonation, it is more related to the "catalyst". In many countries, the requirement not to use lead as an antiknock, led to the use of more "manganese" in the fuel to replace lead. This manganese tends to accumulate in the catalyst until it becomes clogged. Premium gasolines did not use manganese to replace lead. What I am referring to is from the year 2010…..today regular gasoline probably does not use manganese either because in practically all countries, the engines are catalyzed, but in 2010 (year of presentation of the S10) in many countries it was just beginning to require catalysts, but the ban on using lead in gasoline was already in force
 

Scrambler007

Active Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
114
Location
Canada
You have a confusion there. Along with the Honda AT, the S10 is one of those with the lowest compression ratio. In the case of the S10, the use of premium gasoline is not related to a possible detonation, it is more related to the "catalyst". In many countries, the requirement not to use lead as an antiknock, led to the use of more "manganese" in the fuel to replace lead. This manganese tends to accumulate in the catalyst until it becomes clogged. Premium gasolines did not use manganese to replace lead. What I am referring to is from the year 2010…..today regular gasoline probably does not use manganese either because in practically all countries, the engines are catalyzed, but in 2010 (year of presentation of the S10) in many countries it was just beginning to require catalysts, but the ban on using lead in gasoline was already in force
My 2019 Africa Twin had to meet the same requirements, manual still says to use Regular gas. My 2021 still clearly states on the tank sticker Premium gas (91) only. If it was only for the manganese issue they should have revised the stickers since 2010...at least you'd think they would have.
 

Jlq1969

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
1,749
Location
Argentina
There are differences when measuring the octane number of gasoline. International method (RON) and American method (AKI= average between MON and RON).
In the RON method, the amount of RON is related to the compression release:
1) RC 9 to 10 = 93 RON
2) 10.5 to 11 = 95 RON.
3) More than 11 = 98 RON
When comparing the RON measurements with the AKI, it would result:
93 RON=87AKI. (Regular)
95RON=89AKI. (Mide-grade)
98RON=91 AKI. (Premiun)

In USA
96D6CC42-47EE-4230-8DD9-1960C9444623.jpeg8F67E198-C716-48D7-9A9E-1B9082CF1D9A.jpeg
International:
61507B32-1BBF-4D06-BD7E-283F8E42F978.jpeg
2ECB3C8B-BE82-4121-BEC4-81AB4B9FDF72.jpeg557C2AD6-5985-4C32-91E5-387AFF2376FD.jpeg5EE98252-FE97-467F-83DB-A26C645B0B39.jpeg937167C5-3FAC-4427-81FD-103B27D9F584.jpeg
9BD72582-189C-41EF-8BB5-4BBEA9A2FF7A.jpeg5EA21AC3-5738-4AAB-9E9D-9595B8925352.jpeg7345237F-D0E5-4BCA-9752-E70583B7BF54.jpeg
 
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Cycledude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
3,998
Location
Rib lake wi
You have a confusion there. Along with the Honda AT, the S10 is one of those with the lowest compression ratio. In the case of the S10, the use of premium gasoline is not related to a possible detonation, it is more related to the "catalyst". In many countries, the requirement not to use lead as an antiknock, led to the use of more "manganese" in the fuel to replace lead. This manganese tends to accumulate in the catalyst until it becomes clogged. Premium gasolines did not use manganese to replace lead. What I am referring to is from the year 2010…..today regular gasoline probably does not use manganese either because in practically all countries, the engines are catalyzed, but in 2010 (year of presentation of the S10) in many countries it was just beginning to require catalysts, but the ban on using lead in gasoline was already in force
I don’t know about Argentina but here in the USA leaded gasoline was banned way back in the 1970’s , but that always leaves me wondering why gas station’s here in the USA continue using signs advertising unleaded gasoline when leaded gasoline has been banned for about 50 years ?
 
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Scrambler007

Active Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
114
Location
Canada
There are differences when measuring the octane number of gasoline. International method (RON) and American method (AKI= average between MON and RON).
In the RON method, the amount of RON is related to the compression release:
1) RC 9 to 10 = 93 RON
2) 10.5 to 11 = 95 RON.
3) More than 11 = 98 RON
When comparing the RON measurements with the AKI, it would result:
93 RON=87AKI. (Regular)
95RON=89AKI. (Mide-grade)
98RON=91 AKI. (Premiun)

In USA
View attachment 89804View attachment 89805
International:
I'm in Canada and the sticker on the tank states:
"PREMIUM UNLEADED GASOLINE ONLY
91 Min. Pump Octane (R+M)/2"

And here 91 is the premium at most gas stations, 93 can be found at few gas stations. I certainly won't be putting higher octane than the minimum required :) There's just no reason why this bike was not optimized to run on Regular by now. Again, not a deal breaker, but it could have been better.
 
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Jlq1969

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Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
1,749
Location
Argentina
In any case, and not to make a controversy with the issue of fuel, I only load it with premium, but if someone who was crossing the Sahara, did not find Premium, they could easily fill the tank of the S10 with a mid-grade that the compression ratio of the engine would be in the range of this gasoline. It would not be the case of a 1290 or a Multistrada or a 1250….which are “forced” to use premium because their Compression “does not admit other lower gasoline”
 
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Sierra1

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Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
14,812
Location
Joshua TX
I use premium 'cuz she has to haul my fat ass around in our heat. And if I don't use premium, she'll "rattle" like hell in stop-n-go traffic in that heat. But there's plenty of guys here that have reported that they use regular with no issues. So . . . .
 

lund

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2019
Messages
809
Location
Okanagan Valley, Canada.
At an 11:1 ratio 91oct is correct and is best, you can use 89oct in the Tenere in touring mode as the ign and fuel delivery is held back.
10:1 is generally the fine line depending on tune.
What is an adventure bike if you cannot ever use low grade gas? There are countries out there that is exactly the case, 12:1, 13:1 engine requiring nothing but high oct. makes them less of a true adventure and more of a "I think i'am" an adventure bike. Adventure bikes don't need high powered engines but need engines that will run in different circumstances. Yamaha recommends 91oct because of the 11:1 ratio and sport mode, in touring mode it will live just fine.
Plus if you can afford an S10 with all the goodies, fuel octane is a non issue. And yes leaded fuels in N. America has been banned for nearly 40yrs now.
 

pooh and xtine

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2014
Messages
288
Location
UK
The only difference between Sport and Touring is how aggressive the RBW throttle map is. For example, in Sport, opening the twistgrip fully opens the throttle butterflies 100% from 4000rpm upwards, whereas in Touring mode, wide open throttle only fully opens the butterflies at 7250rpm (at 4000rpm in Touring, wide open throttle only opens the butterflies 71%). The fuel and ignition maps are identical in Sport and Touring. The higher compression bikes have knock sensors to retard the timing to help cope with low octane fuel, but the ST relies on relatively low compression and lazy timing to run on low grade stuff.
 

Strummer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2020
Messages
619
Location
Italy
Personally I don't know about some stuff you are taking about but....
As the Super Tenere was first launched here there was an Italian guy , a certain Mr Davide Biga I think, who took the bike for a
" world tour ".
He has made about 80000 km around the world ( 50000 miles given or taken) in about a year or so.
I believe that he didn't use premium all the time and once returned he had the engine took apart and checked and everyone was surprised to see as good as the engine and the bike generally speaking looked.
For me was one of the reason I chose the S10...
 

Strummer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2020
Messages
619
Location
Italy
I agree with you.
On the video it says it run as low as 78 octane sometimes...
Probably run like crap but it didn't kill either.
It is good to know that if it happens to us the bike would take us home somehow.
Just that.
 
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