Triumph VS KTM

fac191

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went to the NEC bike show in the UK yesterday the 1200 tiger has 2 options the top one has a larger tank but shit £19,500

glad i love mt tenere and i,m skint lol
And they ruined the engine. I dont get all this character rubbish. Vibes are vibes who wants them ?. It seems to me that Triumph are just making bikes for people who will buy a new one every 2 years
( BMW ) well with the Global Reccession we are in people want VFM and a bike they will keep for several years. All the reviews i read of the 2021 SAS the one after DD's say its super smooth and its a V Twin.
 
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Dirt_Dad

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All the reviews i read of the 2021 SAS the one after DD's say its super smooth and its a V Twin.
I have never noticed vibration at any speed or RPM level. Just not a factor on my 2020 SAS. And yes, I routinely run it up to where the TFT turns red to alert me to the approaching red line. No vibes.
 

TNWalker

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My 2022 SAS is as smooth as silk. It's hands down the best engine I have ever owned. Weather was warmer today got a few miles in. :)

Steve
 

Donk

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1290 is a great engine period. They are smooth durable and low maintenance.

The 270 degree parallel twin is also a great engine

I am not a fan of the new triples both Yamaha and Triumph. They have ruined what made a triple great.
 

Donk

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Dirt Dad think back to the days of small block vs big block Chevy. Small blocks were always quicker but once the big block got going it came on strong and was faster top end. Same is true for the 890 and 1290. The small block and the 890 can spin up - make rpm faster than the big block or the 1290. There is less mass in the engine to get moving. In addition the 890 is a smaller lighter bike and lighter accelerates faster. Think about it 1 cylinder head vs 2, no electronic suspension, less oil and coolant, it all adds up. I don't know how much you weigh but me at 172lbs am not a factor, a 250lbs guy may be. It's not too hard to imagine if you think it trough.

Just for fun. These are 790s not 890s
 
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Longdog Cymru

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1290 is a great engine period. They are smooth durable and low maintenance.

The 270 degree parallel twin is also a great engine

I am not a fan of the new triples both Yamaha and Triumph. They have ruined what made a triple great.
As a matter of interest, most parallel twins have 270 degree cranks nowadays, Yamaha kicked that off with the TDM, the 270 degree crank mimics a 90 degree V twin and gives great traction and smooths out the parallel twins vibes. It is also easier to package a parallel twin in a frame than a 90 degree V twin.

I don’t know how you can say that about the Yamaha triple, but I think you’re wrong there my friend, the Yamaha triple is a cracker. Now the current Triumph triples….. what were they thinking of? Altering the firing sequence to give “character” by making it vibrate? I don’t think so!
 
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WJBertrand

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I think I recall seeing a company that was specialized in making parts for Yamaha’s original XS650, offering a 270° crank and cam kit for it. I believe they were 360° from the factory, just like the all British twins of the era. First time I heard of a 270° twin was when Yamaha introduced the, I think, second Gen TDM.


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Donk

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I believe the crank in the Tracer 9 is different from the crank in the FZ/MT-09 and Tracer 900. I believe it is now supposed to be more twin like in its power pulses.
 

HeliMark

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Now the current Triumph triples….. what were they thinking of? Altering the firing sequence to give “character” by making it vibrate? I don’t think so!
It wasn't about character, it was all about getting low end torque, one of the biggest complaints from 800 and 1200 owners that take the bike off-road. Sure it vibrates, my hand has been numbed by other bikes just as much as my 900RP, and there are fixes like any other bike. They accomplished what was intended, but like all things, there are compromises without designing a whole new engine.
 

fac191

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Triumph should develop a competitive parallel twin. All their twin engines are old now. Triples are road engines. Will be interesting to see what the Yam 900 Tenere will be like if it comes but your never going to get good torque from a Triple.
 

Dirt_Dad

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Dirt Dad think back to the days of small block vs big block Chevy. Small blocks were always quicker but once the big block got going it came on strong and was faster top end. Same is true for the 890 and 1290. The small block and the 890 can spin up - make rpm faster than the big block or the 1290. There is less mass in the engine to get moving. In addition the 890 is a smaller lighter bike and lighter accelerates faster. Think about it 1 cylinder head vs 2, no electronic suspension, less oil and coolant, it all adds up. I don't know how much you weigh but me at 172lbs am not a factor, a 250lbs guy may be. It's not too hard to imagine if you think it trough.

Just for fun. These are 790s not 890s
Everything you say, and the video shows, it makes sense...but...

While riding DM's 750 for a few hours yesterday I thinking about "fast bikes" and how that plays into satisfaction with the ride. I do not consider the SAS to be my fastest bike. That distinction goes to my old 2005 Yamaha FZ1. At 0 to an indicated 90 MPH, in about 3 seconds, in first gear, that bike was so fast it was confusing. It was also the bike I consider to be the most boring bike I've ever owned. I have never felt confused or bored pushing the SAS in that same range. Instead it's pure entertainment. I don't know how many seconds it takes, don't care, I just know it's extremely satisifying and impossible not to love. So, a high launch speed alone isn't the whole answer.

It made me realize one more aspect of KTM engineering that just works for me. Their design of the SAS is a true masterpiece. The bike is as gentle as a kitten and can be ridden in Sport mode (160 hp) in the rain and it will never do anything to surprise, worry, or scare you. There are better modes available for that environment, but realizing it's raining and you're still in Sport is not a big deal. Request it to do more and it will give only as requested. Request a lot and it will provide as much thrill as I could ever hope to experience. But it's never confusing, it's never worrying, it's never been anything other that a totally in control, often laugh out loud, I love motorcycling moment. Raw, shoot out from underneath you, bruit force doesn't provide that level of entertainment...KTM engineering does. At least it does for me.

I'm very interested to see what the 890, a quicker spin up engine than a 1290, will do once the KTM engineers say it's ready for prime time. My expectations are very high. KTM has never disappointed me yet. (I'm willing to think my short test ride of the 790 was not a good representation of what it could do)

By the way, Donk, I enjoyed that video. Not necessarily the 790 beating the 1290 off the line part, but starting at the 4:11 point I could really related to the rest of the video. I spend a lot of alone time doing that kind of stuff.

...and DM's BMW 750? A thoroughly enjoyable, zippy little bike. But my god, BMW engineers take keeping the front wheel glued to the pavement VERY seriously.
 

Checkswrecks

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Dirt Dad think back to the days of small block vs big block Chevy. Small blocks were always quicker but once the big block got going it came on strong and was faster top end. Same is true for the 890 and 1290. The small block and the 890 can spin up - make rpm faster than the big block or the 1290. There is less mass in the engine to get moving. In addition the 890 is a smaller lighter bike and lighter accelerates faster. Think about it 1 cylinder head vs 2, no electronic suspension, less oil and coolant, it all adds up. I don't know how much you weigh but me at 172lbs am not a factor, a 250lbs guy may be. It's not too hard to imagine if you think it trough.

Just for fun. These are 790s not 890s
There's a race saying "Cubic Inches Count" that applies here. The smaller motor may be quicker but it will run out of horsepower at some speed and the bigger engine will pass it. The question is what that speed might be?
 

Checkswrecks

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...Now the current Triumph triples….. what were they thinking of? Altering the firing sequence to give “character” by making it vibrate? I don’t think so!
In the 2022 Triumph 1200s the owners say the vibration isn't felt till about 6,000 rpm and unless holding on tight for long stretches it's not bothersome. I'll defer to Mark but from what I read, the 900 models have it lower in the power band. Dirt Dad and I were not impressed with our 900 rides and this was one reason.

As for why, as HeliMark wrote, it was done for the same reason as the 270 crank in the Tenere. The result is a longer power pulse at the tire to put down torque more effectively and increase traction.
The more I look a the new Triumph 1200 the more it looks like how Yamaha should update the Super Tenere if and when they ever do. I'm starting to get interested in the smaller more road oriented version as well as the Moto Guzzi V85TT.
 

fac191

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I dont do it but riding a 1200 off road takes alot of skill. May be 1 in 10 owners will do it. But do they really want to trash an expensive bike ?. For me its just marketing bullshit. And to what end to make it worse on road where it will spend most of its life. They should have put the 1200 RR or Speed Triple motor in it and gone for it. The suspension is probably the biggest limitation off road and sophisticated traction control will keep it in check anyway. They done alot of work to shed the weight it needed to loose and putting the latest suspension on it. I bet anyone who rode one with that RR engine in one would never swap it for that other motor. What i dont get is Yamaha can do it so why cant they make a Triple with good torque and not vibes.
 

Dirt_Dad

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Dirt Dad and I were not impressed with our 900 rides and this was one reason.
I'd say vibrations killed that bike for me. Also really felt the 21" front wheel limitations with that one more than say the Honda AT. In the end, it just didn't work for me. Bikes are such a personal thing. I know HeliMark seemed very pleased with it the one time I rode with him.
 

HeliMark

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In the 2022 Triumph 1200s the owners say the vibration isn't felt till about 6,000 rpm and unless holding on tight for long stretches it's not bothersome. I'll defer to Mark but from what I read, the 900 models have it lower in the power band. Dirt Dad and I were not impressed with our 900 rides and this was one reason.
I'd say vibrations killed that bike for me. Also really felt the 21" front wheel limitations with that one more than say the Honda AT. In the end, it just didn't work for me. Bikes are such a personal thing. I know HeliMark seemed very pleased with it the one time I rode with him.
The vibrations come on about the same on the 900, right around 6,000 rpm. I am either use to it now, or on the last valve check the mechanic did something, although the valves were in. Maybe Triumph had a newer fuel map that helped with the vibrations, don't know. In my limited knowledge, the 21" wheel for me hasn't been any problem on road, just takes a little more work, and off road, of course better than 19".

There are several negatives I can give on the Triumph, at least the 900. It amazes me they still can't figure out the "Tiger hop" on the front wheel, at around 40 mph. All the excuses, and "fixes", it will still come back. Or maybe that is a design feature. The vibes as stated above. One of the biggest for the 900 is the upper crash bars. Both factory and aftermarket, use the same mounting points, with longer bolts for the frame/engine. With the vibrations, and even a medium drop, the bolts are shearing. Not something you want, much less away from home. Solution is to not have the upper crash bars. The 1200 does not have this problem, they mount the bars differently.

DD is right, I am entertained by the 900, the light weight, and that triple when you get it in the 7-8,000 rpm is addictive. Saying that, I am looking at the 890, or the Norden 901 as a replacement.
 

fac191

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The Tiger hop is the Suspension Damping. Had mine modded while getting Wilbers springs put in and it was gone. Triumph suspension is not great. The Semi Active seems to be ok.
 

fac191

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Someone on the Tiger Forum with a 900 asking is it worth spending £250 to activate the Triumph Connectivity Module. Replys " when it works its great but most of the time it doesnt " hmmm.
 

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The Connectivity Module is an add-on dongle which acts as a Bluetooth router, so the TFT display can control phone calls, nav directions, and control music being played. It get mixed reviews at best, partly because the dealer has to make some software changes, then the phone needs Google Maps, then the phone has to have the My Triumph app, ......
Sounds f-d up to me.

Under the passenger seat of the 1200 there's a plastic case with a teeny bit of foam and USB outlet that you're supposed to put your phone in. While I loved the bike, that had to be one of the most stupid ideas I've seen in a long time.
On the upside, next to the 1200 instrument display they upgraded from the usual cheap cigarette lighter (3 amps in the Super Tenere) to a 15 amp Powerlett outlet. You could run a heated jacket liner and gloves with that much.
 
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