Recently started stuttering at low RPMs, loss of power in high gears over 4k RPM

SkunkWorks

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You do not have to remove the Clutch-cover, the CCT, or the Camshafts to "CHECK" the Valve-Clearances.

You DO have to remove all of those things to "ADJUST" the Valve-Clearances, as the adjustment Shims are underneath the Valve-Buckets.
You cannot remove the Valve-Buckets without removing the Camshafts.

If you have to remove the CCT, I would upgrade to the latest "Gen-2" design, or a Manual-adjustment one.

Throttle-Body sync has nothing to do with your symptoms, but should be done after a valve-clearance adjustment.
I would check your VIN number against any recall listings.
 

WookinPaNub

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Thanks to everyone for their responses. I've finally had a chance to read and research as much as I can wrap my brain around and came up with the below (questions at the bottom):

Planned Next Steps:
  1. Seafoam treatment for the carbs
  2. Valve Check / Adjustment
    1. While I'm in there:
      1. Replace Spark Plugs
      2. Replace Air Filter
      3. Battery Replacement (it's due)

Optional Next Steps if the above doesn't address the issue:
  • Dealer Diagnostic
  • Throttle Body Synch?

Valve Adjustment How Tos:
  • Service Manual: Section 3.5 on my manual
  • Video: Toms Tinkering and Adventure
    • Simplistic, minor valve adjustment
    • Removes Clutch Cover
  • Video: Freedom Machine
    • Greater detail, more of a teardown for easier accesses for valve cover removal
    • Does *not* remove the entire Clutch Cover (access port only)
    • Does remove the Camshafts
    • Does adjustments for all valves
  • Post: MGB - Lessons Learned

Addtl Tools I'll need:
  • Small spec torque wrench
  • Thickness gauge (.01 thicknesses)

Parts:
  • High temp silicone gasket maker
  • (Possibly) Camshaft cover gasket (if clutch cover is pulled)
  • (Possibly) Replacement chain tensioner
  • Blue loctite
  • Valve shims

Questions:
  1. From reading, if both the chain / sprockets are marked / ziptied and the cam covers are pulled on the exhaust cam and all covers on the intake are removed (and the remaining cover near the sprocket is simply loosened) then it's possible to remove any valve covers to adjust shims without having to remove the camshafts, CCT, clutch cover). Does that sound correct?
  2. Some people have replaced their Gen 1 (which a 2013 is if memory serves) with a 2014 version, is that a worthwhile upgrade while I'm in there or if I don't have to remove the CCT to the above do I care?
  3. Hate to buy a full shim kit beforehand, but also don't want to have the bike down for an extended period of time in summer. I see people talk about Hot Cams or Pro X kits, is there a better option out there now to pre-purchase shim kits but without a ton of unusable shims left over? And ones with smaller tolerances of .25 vs the standard .5 sizings?
  4. Any other beneficial proactive maintenance while I'm in there?
  5. Would a Throttle Body Synch actually do anything for these symptoms?
To Question #1, it relates to this post in the MGB Lessons Learned Thread I referenced: Adjust Valves w/o Removing Camshafts
 

WookinPaNub

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You DO have to remove all of those things to "ADJUST" the Valve-Clearances, as the adjustment Shims are underneath the Valve-Buckets.
You cannot remove the Valve-Buckets without removing the Camshafts.
Thanks for the tip on the CCT upgrade.

To the above, I got that idea from here specifically, any thoughts in regards to that as it appears 4jranch was able to without removing the camshafts. And if that is true I'm assuming that means not removing the CCT and having to worry about the chain retensioning, etc?

Adjust Valves w/o Removing Camshafts
 

WookinPaNub

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Valve Shim Options

Something that might be of interest to others is what valve shim options are out there depending on how precise you are trying to match the clearances. Again these are for the 9.48mm diameter valve shims for the S10.

Kits
ManufacturerStart Thickness (mm)End Thickness (mm)Interval / Increment (mm)Shims per sizeCost
ProX1.203.50.053$90
ProX1.2253.475.053$91
AHL1.204.00.051$35
AHL1.2253.475.051$55
HotCams1.203.50.053$80

So if you really want to 'dial' in your clearances, you'd have to buy 2 of the above kits, one with a start of 1.20 and another with an offset start of 1.225. Pretty expensive endeavor unless you use a lot of 9.48mm shims.

-OR-

RockyMtnATV actually sells *all* the above shims (ProX) *a la carte* (they will be listed under the '2014 Yamaha WR450F'). Each shim is about $2 per with various shipping costs depending on delivery time and number purchased. But if you really want to be accurate and have some time to complete the repair this appears to be a very good option.
 

fac191

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Regarding pressure washing. I have a Muc-Off one. Its not high pressure and i dont poke it anywhere i shouldnt. I mostly just use a hose though. The washer is good for removing crap before a decent clean. I do have one of those blowers though and yes you can see how much water is in the nooks and crannys. Worth getting one if you hose down regular.
 

WookinPaNub

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Dec 5, 2013
Messages
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Location
Cotopaxi, CO
Results
  • Performed Valve Shim adjustment, new plugs, new air filter, new battery, cleaned throttle bodies
  • Of the 8 valves 5 were outside the min ranges, 2 at the limits, and only 1 in the middle of the range
  • I had to replace / move 7 of the 8 shims
  • Once complete, 6 valves were right in the middle of the ranges, 2 (Cyl 2 Exhaust) were both at the lower limit but in the acceptable range
  • Bike now idling at 1k (rough, but will post another thread on that one) as expected, power is there under 2k now and also at upper gears when rolling on the throttle
Thoughts:
  • I would not do this repair again. Those folks who say they can complete this in 8-10 hours are either much more skilled mechanically, don't encounter *any* issues, or only have to change just a few of the most accessible shims. The amount of disassembly time, connectors / bolts / screws / etc to keep track of, and reassembly time is significant. One screw up buttoning things back up and you get to enjoy the process all over again.
  • Also doing the air filter, plugs and battery while in there makes sense given the amount of teardown
Aside - You CAN perform shim replacements *without* removing the camshafts from the chain or removing the clutch cover:
  • As I had alluded to above, you can access all valve covers / shims *without* opening the clutch cover *or* removing the camshafts from the chain. You just have to be very diligent and dogmatic in the approach. This simplifies the repair while maintaining the correct chain tension and not cracking the cover. To do this:
    • Follow all the steps to access the valves / camshafts, opening the port on the clutch cover to see the "K" and "T" markings on the cam sprocket
    • Ensure the proper "K" alignment (per the service manual with the cylinder 1 cam lobe orientations). This will also have the proper alignment of the hole on the intake camshaft to the line on the cam cover nearest the sprocket (again, per the service manual)
    • Ziptie the chain on *both* camshaft sprockets to the cam chain to hold it in the proper orientation / tension
    • With a qtip and paint, paint a line on both camshaft sprockets of where the chain meets the sprocket. This is a sanity check should the chain 'slip' for any reason on the reassembly.
    • Remove the Cam Chain Tensioner. This now loosens up the chain for the next steps, and there is a 'retainer' on the cam sprocket that holds the chain tight against the cam sprocket even with the CCT removed.
    • Remove the Intake cam covers (farthest from sprocket towards the sprocket sequence)
    • Remove the Exhaust cam cover
    • Both camshafts, with the CCT removed, can now rotate freely up and out of the way while keeping the chain attached at the proper orientation / alignment
    • Replace the shims as needed
    • Reinstall the exhaust camshaft and tighten, the cam chain tension between the exhaust camshaft and the cam sprocket in the clutch cover should now be tight
    • Reinstall the intake camshaft ensuring the proper alignment of the dot on the camshaft to the line on the cam cover closest to the sprocket, tightening the cam covers from the sprocket outwards incrementally. The chain tension between the exhaust and intake camshafts should be tight
    • Reinstall the Cam Chain Tensioner (after resetting) and then use a long screwdriver to reach down past the intake camshaft sprocket and push against the plastic / synthetic strip that the CCT pushes against that then pushes against the cam chain. This pressure will fore the CCT to engage and tighten the chain, so the tension is now correct between the intake camshaft and the cam sprocket.
    • Remove the zipties and slowly rotate that cam sprocket manually ensure there is no skipping in the chain.
    • Continue with the normal testing / reassembly steps
 

~TABASCO~

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Thanks to everyone for their responses. I've finally had a chance to read and research as much as I can wrap my brain around and came up with the below (questions at the bottom):

Planned Next Steps:
  1. Seafoam treatment for the carbs
  2. Valve Check / Adjustment
    1. While I'm in there:
      1. Replace Spark Plugs
      2. Replace Air Filter
      3. Battery Replacement (it's due)

Optional Next Steps if the above doesn't address the issue:
  • Dealer Diagnostic
  • Throttle Body Synch?

Valve Adjustment How Tos:
  • Service Manual: Section 3.5 on my manual
  • Video: Toms Tinkering and Adventure
    • Simplistic, minor valve adjustment
    • Removes Clutch Cover
  • Video: Freedom Machine
    • Greater detail, more of a teardown for easier accesses for valve cover removal
    • Does *not* remove the entire Clutch Cover (access port only)
    • Does remove the Camshafts
    • Does adjustments for all valves
  • Post: MGB - Lessons Learned

Addtl Tools I'll need:
  • Small spec torque wrench
  • Thickness gauge (.01 thicknesses)

Parts:
  • High temp silicone gasket maker
  • (Possibly) Camshaft cover gasket (if clutch cover is pulled)
  • (Possibly) Replacement chain tensioner
  • Blue loctite
  • Valve shims

Questions:
  1. From reading, if both the chain / sprockets are marked / ziptied and the cam covers are pulled on the exhaust cam and all covers on the intake are removed (and the remaining cover near the sprocket is simply loosened) then it's possible to remove any valve covers to adjust shims without having to remove the camshafts, CCT, clutch cover). Does that sound correct?
  2. Some people have replaced their Gen 1 (which a 2013 is if memory serves) with a 2014 version, is that a worthwhile upgrade while I'm in there or if I don't have to remove the CCT to the above do I care?
  3. Hate to buy a full shim kit beforehand, but also don't want to have the bike down for an extended period of time in summer. I see people talk about Hot Cams or Pro X kits, is there a better option out there now to pre-purchase shim kits but without a ton of unusable shims left over? And ones with smaller tolerances of .25 vs the standard .5 sizings?
  4. Any other beneficial proactive maintenance while I'm in there?
  5. Would a Throttle Body Synch actually do anything for these symptoms?
It looks like you have done a good job understanding what will need to take place..................
  1. From reading, if both the chain / sprockets are marked / ziptied and the cam covers are pulled on the exhaust cam and all covers on the intake are removed (and the remaining cover near the sprocket is simply loosened) then it's possible to remove any valve covers to adjust shims without having to remove the camshafts, CCT, clutch cover). Does that sound correct? You will need to remove the valve cover, mark the chain and sprockets in the correct "clocked position" and then check the valves. Each cylinder has a different crank position.. You will need to adjust at least one valve for sure.... you must pull the cams and other adjoining parts to get all that out.
  2. Some people have replaced their Gen 1 (which a 2013 is if memory serves) with a 2014 version, is that a worthwhile upgrade while I'm in there or if I don't have to remove the CCT to the above do I care? You will have to remove the CCT when you do the valve adjustment.... I would suggest a new "modern" CCT or even better, a GRAVES manual CCT (MCCT), and never have to 'wonder' about it again.... Adjusting this in the future is about 5-10 min and good for 25-30K miles.
  3. Hate to buy a full shim kit beforehand, but also don't want to have the bike down for an extended period of time in summer. I see people talk about Hot Cams or Pro X kits, is there a better option out there now to pre-purchase shim kits but without a ton of unusable shims left over? And ones with smaller tolerances of .25 vs the standard .5 sizings? If you're only doing your bike maybe one-time, you might consider finding the shims you actually need, and the # of them that you need..... you might need one, you might need eight...... And then just order the ones you need................. The other option is to order the whole kit. I use the hot cams, work great.
  4. Any other beneficial proactive maintenance while I'm in there? Eye ball your ignition coils for rust or excessive dirt, Etc.... If you find that one is rusty, or really rusty, look down that hole and make sure you look to see if water is in that hole before you just "pull the plug out"..... If you see any of this you might want to test the coil and possible replace if its no working properly.... (Ive performed valve adjustments many times. I highly suggest you slowly and carefully check the valves... IMOP, I would re set each valve back into the middle of its 'service window'..... If it's close to either edge of the window DONT skip over this, adjust it back towards the middle of the range. It might be relatively small increment, but please understand this makes a difference in the performance. (your going to get out, what you put in)
  5. Would a Throttle Body Synch actually do anything for these symptoms? YES- it's part of the overall puzzle.... it's part of the chocolate cake ingredients.... Make sure you back out the "white paint mark side / typically the (R) side TB) 3/4 of a turn from a gentle closed position. Once this is backed out 3/4, it's now static and sync the other side to match the new 3/4 turned out side....... This is like adjusting the pilot screw on a traditional carb..... it's low end, off the bottom, stop and go, and take off 'smoothness'.......... It's Important to get these items as close to perfect as possible....

If you need any help or get stuck just let me know..... I can do almost all this with my eyes closed....... I have it memorized.............

 

~TABASCO~

RIDE ON ADV is what I do !
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  • I would not do this repair again. Those folks who say they can complete this in 8-10 hours are either much more skilled mechanically, don't encounter *any* issues, or only have to change just a few of the most accessible shims. The amount of disassembly time, connectors / bolts / screws / etc to keep track of, and reassembly time is significant. One screw up buttoning things back up and you get to enjoy the process all over again.



I agree with you...... Ive always chuckled when someone tells me another shop will charge $200-$300 to do this whole job...... the dealers these days get $100++ an hour.... OK, that's 2-3 hours of service work..... These dealers will not be doing anyone a favor and doing a 10 hour job in two hours........ LOL. So what is really going on?

Agree with you, Im very particular and it takes me similar time as you have mentioned to get this all dialed in 100%..........
 

WookinPaNub

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I can't edit my original thread, but wanted to post up what the issue was and the ultimate fix:

Issue: Many of the intake and exhaust valves were in bad condition and there was a 15% leakage occurring. Piston rings were also starting to show wear.
Reason: Theory is that dirt was getting past the air filter and caused the damage
Repair: Replacement of all intake and exhaust valves, rebuild the head.
Note: The piston rings are no longer being manufactured by Yamaha, or by third parties. So when they go, unless something changes, the bike goes with it.... :(
 

Tenman

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I always thought they were required to make parts for x number of years after a bike is no longer made. I called a Yamaha dealer to check my dead gen1 out. The lady on the phone ask someone. I could hear the guy ask how old it was. When I told her it was a 2013. He said they don't work on bikes that old.
 

Sierra1

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. . . . Note: The piston rings are no longer being manufactured by Yamaha, or by third parties. So when they go, unless something changes, the bike goes with it.... :(
Does that mean Gen 1 and Gen 2? Because I thought they were the same. Just like the CCT. 'Cuz, on the off chance that someone buys a '23 and they lose a piston but can't get it repaired . . . . that doesn't seem like it should be legal.
I always thought they were required to make parts for x number of years after a bike is no longer made. . . .
Yeah, I thought that too. Apparently, it's just a myth.
 

Tenforeplay

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That’s what dirt will do. Need to post that on the thread where guys are asking about those gauze air filters. Shame such a good engine can’t take a rering. Probably has to do with the cylinder liner material with which they should last a long time. Used engine would be another option, the bike is not totally lost.
 

Checkswrecks

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I always thought they were required to make parts for x number of years after a bike is no longer made. I called a Yamaha dealer to check my dead gen1 out. The lady on the phone ask someone. I could hear the guy ask how old it was. When I told her it was a 2013. He said they don't work on bikes that old.
Gen2 started in 2014 and had a change in pistons to get a few more HP because we owners were so vocal in wanting it.

OEMs need to make parts available (not actually manufacture) for vehicles 10 years after stop of production. Gen1 ended in 2013 so it sounds like they were short by a couple of months.
 

Clawdog60

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I can't edit my original thread, but wanted to post up what the issue was and the ultimate fix:

Issue: Many of the intake and exhaust valves were in bad condition and there was a 15% leakage occurring. Piston rings were also starting to show wear.
Reason: Theory is that dirt was getting past the air filter and caused the damage
Repair: Replacement of all intake and exhaust valves, rebuild the head.
Note: The piston rings are no longer being manufactured by Yamaha, or by third parties. So when they go, unless something changes, the bike goes with it.... :(
Omg
I can't edit my original thread, but wanted to post up what the issue was and the ultimate fix:

Issue: Many of the intake and exhaust valves were in bad condition and there was a 15% leakage occurring. Piston rings were also starting to show wear.
Reason: Theory is that dirt was getting past the air filter and caused the damage
Repair: Replacement of all intake and exhaust valves, rebuild the head.
Note: The piston rings are no longer being manufactured by Yamaha, or by third parties. So when they go, unless something changes, the bike goes with it.... :(
omg no piston rings available. Wtf
 
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