If a seal fails, then yes, you'll get oil in the shaft drive housing. But otherwise, it runs dry.AndyCBR said:
- Mark
Rear drive maintenance at tire changes
- Thread starter Checkswrecks
- Start date
- Mark
Mark,markjenn said:
The housing outside of the seals is dry when there is no seal failure I agree. The front splines are "dry" regardless I agree.
However, the rear drive shaft coupler male/female combo is behind an oil seal and exposed to oil. The aft spline shaft is on the "oil side" of the differential.
While it may not be a "bath" persay, the 2 holes through the backside of the coupler expose both the aft female coupler and aft male spline to differential oil.
I suspect this is why moly assembly is specified for the rear splines (as opposed to LS grease for the front) as it will eventually mix with the differential oil.
Having had the assembly in my hand I can assure you the aft splines are not exposed to the drive shaft housing unless the oil seal is removed.
I really haven't had the assemblies you're talking about apart or examined them in any detail. What I do still believe is that the splines at the aft end of the driveshaft, where they engage into the rear pumpkin assembly, are outside the sealed part of the pumpkin where the final drive oil lives. Maybe there is some splash lube in an intermediate area that I'm not aware of. And that Yamaha and common sense says to use moly grease on them. That's my story and I'm sticking to it, but I bow to your expertise if you have had the assemblies apart.AndyCBR said:
In any event, why is this important? If Yamaha says to use moly on the splines, why would you not?
- Mark
markjenn said:
This article may clear things up for everybody, as it shows the entire final drive assembly, etc. of an FJR1300 completely torn down in detail. Since the FJR's final drive and Super Tenere's are essentially identical I think everybody will find it interesting...
http://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/SkooterG/coupling101.html
And Mark, please note carefully in Part 2 where it states quite clearly:
"Another contentious debate has centered on what lubricates the rear driveshaft and gear coupling splines. Unfortunately, the FJR service manual is, as usual - weak in this area and incorrect conclusions have been drawn. The debate has been whether the splines in question are lubricated by the final drive oil, or whether they should be greased. Well, I am here to tell you they are lubricated by the final drive oil."
And it goes on to explain and illustrate the same two oil passage holes from the final drive fluid reservoir into this coupling, complete with detailed photographs.
Hope this helps.
Dallara
~
No big deal Mark.markjenn said:
The only reason I wanted to clarify this is if you are doing a rear end pull and lube there really is no good reason to fool with the aft spline connection. It certainly is possible to pull the shaft seal and expose the male spline and female coupler and put some more moly in there but what is the point if the coupler and splines are already lubricated by FD oil? The oil seal at the aft connection is by no means easy to replace or remove so my point is unless you have leakage there is no reason to go there.
The good news when I pulled my pumpkin at 11,111 miles is that the front splines had plenty of lube and if you have no leaks at the rear seals (both shaft and coupler) you are good to go.
So, to me, at even 20,000 or 30,000 or even 40,000 miles I wouldn't fool with the aft seal as it doesn't "run dry" or need additional moly lube during its lifespan unless it is disassembled.
That's the only point I was trying to make.
Best,
Andy
~
More final drive and universal joint articles some may useful...
http://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/spline.html
http://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/ujoint/uj.html
And once more, in case you missed it...
http://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/SkooterG/coupling101.html
Hope they may help some of you. ::008::
Dallara
~
More final drive and universal joint articles some may useful...
http://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/spline.html
http://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/ujoint/uj.html
And once more, in case you missed it...
http://www.fjr-tips.org/maint/spline/SkooterG/coupling101.html
Hope they may help some of you. ::008::
Dallara
~
Andy and Dallara, thanks for all the info. Interesting discussion.
I've had these assemblies apart on the FJR, but not the S10. As you guys have pointed out, it's more subtle than I though with respect to what is being lubed how. I'm still not totally convinced that this rear spline is "bathed in oil" but it sure looks like it gets at least a little splash/vapor lube.
At least on the FJR, some really thought pulling the pumpkin and greasing both the front and rear splines was important every tire change, but this seemed like overkill to me. And folks often talk about greasing the splines at the hub where it engages the wheel splines, a place Yamaha doesn't recommend any lube. A little probably goes a long way here.
- Mark
I've had these assemblies apart on the FJR, but not the S10. As you guys have pointed out, it's more subtle than I though with respect to what is being lubed how. I'm still not totally convinced that this rear spline is "bathed in oil" but it sure looks like it gets at least a little splash/vapor lube.
At least on the FJR, some really thought pulling the pumpkin and greasing both the front and rear splines was important every tire change, but this seemed like overkill to me. And folks often talk about greasing the splines at the hub where it engages the wheel splines, a place Yamaha doesn't recommend any lube. A little probably goes a long way here.
- Mark
~
Funny how such a tough set of components* like the shaft drive system on the Super Tenere can be the genesis of such a *delicate* discussion...
There is really no reason for the rear splines to be "bathed in oil", Mark. With even minimal rear wheel rotation lots of final drive lubricant gets splashed about, but once the rear end comes up to temp their is certainly enough heat to cause some vapor expansion and pressurization of oil fog through those holes and onto the rear coupler splines. And given the location of the holes and the rotation of the coupler there will always be some flung outward into the *drum* of the coupler, and hence the splines. Further, it stands to reason, again given the location of the holes at the rear of the coupler, that some final drive lubricant will be retained in the coupler "drum" after shutdown, and so be there to lube the splines when you start riding again. I'm sure Yamaha calls for initial grease lubrication of the splines during assembly simply to provide start-up lube as this *reservoir* of final drive lube gets built up during riding. As such, even if you do choose to grease these coupler splines I would suggest you do so judiciously.
Should these, or even the front splines be greased at every rear tire change? Not IMHO. To me that's pure overkill, especially with the coupler. Checking the front splines is simple enough, but I still feel no need to do it more than about every 10,000 miles or so. I get about 5,200 to 5,800 miles out of a rear tire so I simply check it every other rear tire change. Of course, a lot of how well the spline lube holds up is dependent on what you use to lubricate those splines...
As has been mentioned one of the best lubricants to use is the Honda Moly 60 Paste...
This stuff is great, and readily available. You can find it at most Honda shops and from tons of places online. If you use this, and only this, on your drive splines you will never have a problem, but it's not the only stuff that does a good job. There are other alternatives that are similar in composition that will work well, like Loctite Moly Paste...
or TS70 Moly Paste Grease...
Or Bel-Ray Assembly Lube, which is also a moly paste grease...
All of these are great, but believe it or not, none of them are the best... That probably falls to some incredible stuff made by DuPont, called "Krytox"...
I first learned of Krytox lubricants back when I was in Indy Car racing, and it has some incredible qualities. It is literally impervious to anything, and it resists heat and pressure better than anything currently available. There were any number of components on all sorts of race cars - from Indy Cars to NASCAR - where they went from being "failure prone" to "failure non-existent" with the introduction of Krytox lubes. These lubes were originally developed for the space program, primarily to avoid off-gassing under extreme heat conditions, but getting these properties led to others more suitable for our applications, such as unparalleled resistance to pressure.
You can find out some additional information about Krytox on these pages:
http://www.krytox-lubricants.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krytox
http://www.sandsmachine.com/grease_t.htm
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Shaft.html
This last one is the one folks here will probably find the most useful... Just scroll down the page to where is says "Spline Lubricants" and start there. A bit further down you will find the pertinent info about Krytox lubricants. Here's an excerpt:
"An alternative to moly is the new poly-flourinated lubricants made by DuPont called Krytox Teflon Bearing Grease. These chemicals are simply magic. They have almost no known solvents, are chemically inert, and don't burn at any temperature, even in a pure oxygen atmosphere. This is pretty clearly the only grease to use. See this article. Nascar mechanics have found that Krytox grease can reduce the temperature of spline joints on drive shafts by 150°. Also, this stuff lasts forever. It is, unfortunately, quite expensive.
Krytox is compatible with moly - in fact DuPont sells a high pressure Krytox which mixes the two. You may hear some horror story from some mechanic about mixing greases and the result turning radioactive or some such. Don't worry, it won't happen with moly or Krytox."
And yes, the stuff is pretty expensive, but if you mix it with something like Honda Moly 60 Paste (like I do) then one little tube will last you damn near forever... Through at least dozens of spline lubing sessions. I mix my spline lube to about a 70/30 to 60/40 proportion - Moly Paste/Krytox - and find the Krytox helps keep the Moly paste in place far longer than using just the Moly paste itself. However, application is critical... Not too much, not too little. That said, I feel it's actually better to err on the side of too little, especially if you check the splines regularly. Why less, you may ask? Well, any excess lube will somehow find it's way out of the splines and drooling out somewhere you don't want it. Again, you want enough, though...
So how do you get the right amount? Well, for me I get a nice size piece of aluminum foil, about 6' x 6" square, about a half dozen wooden shaft Q-tips (I find the wood shaft ones much better to use around the shop), and an old table knife I keep in my tool box. Use the table knife (or something similar) to spoon out about a quarter sized dollop of Moly paste onto the foil. Then I squirt out an appropriate amount of Krytox and stir them together into a smooth mix with one of the Q-tips. Then simply use the Q-tips to *paint* the mix onto the splines - inner and outer - until you have a nice, smooth, even, thin layer. I've found it doesn't hurt to have a little more down in the bottom of the spline grooves as this will *squeegee* out onto the flats during assembly.
In the years I have been using the Moly paste and Krytox mix I have had literally *NO* spline wear where I have used it, and better yet, whenever I take the component apart to check and re-lube the splines I have *ALWAYS* found there is still plenty of lubricant there, doing its job well.
On another note, I *DO* use this same lube mix on the splines between the crown gear and the rear wheel. Too may times I have seen lots of rust and corrosion in this very area on other bikes, often to the point of pitting, etc. I don't want that on my bikes, so those rear wheel splines get a nice, light, smooth coating of the same Moly/Krytox mix I use on other splines. Works great, and as long as you don't overdo it, and use the Krytox, it will stay right where you put it.
BTW, before leaving the subject of Krytox... When you use it you will find it's white in color - a nice, almost pearlescent white. Funny, when I pulled my Super Tenere's splines apart for the first time I, like many others, found precious little lube there on the splines. However, what was there was a nice, pearlescent white paste. Makes me wonder if Yamaha uses a Krytox-like lubricant on the splines during factory assembly, and that's why we don't ever see much lube there... Maybe they don't need any more than what's there.
OK, last, but not least... If you are still somehow *worried* that your Super Tenere's rear coupler splines are somehow not well enough cushioned or lubricated, there's a way to alleviate your fears.
Just look for some of this stuff (it comes in two different packages, so I've shown both)...
Again, this stuff is not exactly cheap, but it's a great final drive additive. One tube will last you literally years since you use so little per final drive lube change. You simply add a bit of this to whatever final drive lubricant you prefer (mineral or synthetic) and you get all the benefits of Moly into that final drive coupler.
OK, sorry this went on so long, but I hope it helps some out there.
Dallara
* - well, the final drive pieces are very tough components on a Yamaha, as opposed to the BMW final drive components which are made out of the very finest mahogany, and/or potato chip ingredients available...
~
Funny how such a tough set of components* like the shaft drive system on the Super Tenere can be the genesis of such a *delicate* discussion...
There is really no reason for the rear splines to be "bathed in oil", Mark. With even minimal rear wheel rotation lots of final drive lubricant gets splashed about, but once the rear end comes up to temp their is certainly enough heat to cause some vapor expansion and pressurization of oil fog through those holes and onto the rear coupler splines. And given the location of the holes and the rotation of the coupler there will always be some flung outward into the *drum* of the coupler, and hence the splines. Further, it stands to reason, again given the location of the holes at the rear of the coupler, that some final drive lubricant will be retained in the coupler "drum" after shutdown, and so be there to lube the splines when you start riding again. I'm sure Yamaha calls for initial grease lubrication of the splines during assembly simply to provide start-up lube as this *reservoir* of final drive lube gets built up during riding. As such, even if you do choose to grease these coupler splines I would suggest you do so judiciously.
Should these, or even the front splines be greased at every rear tire change? Not IMHO. To me that's pure overkill, especially with the coupler. Checking the front splines is simple enough, but I still feel no need to do it more than about every 10,000 miles or so. I get about 5,200 to 5,800 miles out of a rear tire so I simply check it every other rear tire change. Of course, a lot of how well the spline lube holds up is dependent on what you use to lubricate those splines...
As has been mentioned one of the best lubricants to use is the Honda Moly 60 Paste...
This stuff is great, and readily available. You can find it at most Honda shops and from tons of places online. If you use this, and only this, on your drive splines you will never have a problem, but it's not the only stuff that does a good job. There are other alternatives that are similar in composition that will work well, like Loctite Moly Paste...
or TS70 Moly Paste Grease...
Or Bel-Ray Assembly Lube, which is also a moly paste grease...
All of these are great, but believe it or not, none of them are the best... That probably falls to some incredible stuff made by DuPont, called "Krytox"...
I first learned of Krytox lubricants back when I was in Indy Car racing, and it has some incredible qualities. It is literally impervious to anything, and it resists heat and pressure better than anything currently available. There were any number of components on all sorts of race cars - from Indy Cars to NASCAR - where they went from being "failure prone" to "failure non-existent" with the introduction of Krytox lubes. These lubes were originally developed for the space program, primarily to avoid off-gassing under extreme heat conditions, but getting these properties led to others more suitable for our applications, such as unparalleled resistance to pressure.
You can find out some additional information about Krytox on these pages:
http://www.krytox-lubricants.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krytox
http://www.sandsmachine.com/grease_t.htm
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Shaft.html
This last one is the one folks here will probably find the most useful... Just scroll down the page to where is says "Spline Lubricants" and start there. A bit further down you will find the pertinent info about Krytox lubricants. Here's an excerpt:
"An alternative to moly is the new poly-flourinated lubricants made by DuPont called Krytox Teflon Bearing Grease. These chemicals are simply magic. They have almost no known solvents, are chemically inert, and don't burn at any temperature, even in a pure oxygen atmosphere. This is pretty clearly the only grease to use. See this article. Nascar mechanics have found that Krytox grease can reduce the temperature of spline joints on drive shafts by 150°. Also, this stuff lasts forever. It is, unfortunately, quite expensive.
Krytox is compatible with moly - in fact DuPont sells a high pressure Krytox which mixes the two. You may hear some horror story from some mechanic about mixing greases and the result turning radioactive or some such. Don't worry, it won't happen with moly or Krytox."
And yes, the stuff is pretty expensive, but if you mix it with something like Honda Moly 60 Paste (like I do) then one little tube will last you damn near forever... Through at least dozens of spline lubing sessions. I mix my spline lube to about a 70/30 to 60/40 proportion - Moly Paste/Krytox - and find the Krytox helps keep the Moly paste in place far longer than using just the Moly paste itself. However, application is critical... Not too much, not too little. That said, I feel it's actually better to err on the side of too little, especially if you check the splines regularly. Why less, you may ask? Well, any excess lube will somehow find it's way out of the splines and drooling out somewhere you don't want it. Again, you want enough, though...
So how do you get the right amount? Well, for me I get a nice size piece of aluminum foil, about 6' x 6" square, about a half dozen wooden shaft Q-tips (I find the wood shaft ones much better to use around the shop), and an old table knife I keep in my tool box. Use the table knife (or something similar) to spoon out about a quarter sized dollop of Moly paste onto the foil. Then I squirt out an appropriate amount of Krytox and stir them together into a smooth mix with one of the Q-tips. Then simply use the Q-tips to *paint* the mix onto the splines - inner and outer - until you have a nice, smooth, even, thin layer. I've found it doesn't hurt to have a little more down in the bottom of the spline grooves as this will *squeegee* out onto the flats during assembly.
In the years I have been using the Moly paste and Krytox mix I have had literally *NO* spline wear where I have used it, and better yet, whenever I take the component apart to check and re-lube the splines I have *ALWAYS* found there is still plenty of lubricant there, doing its job well.
On another note, I *DO* use this same lube mix on the splines between the crown gear and the rear wheel. Too may times I have seen lots of rust and corrosion in this very area on other bikes, often to the point of pitting, etc. I don't want that on my bikes, so those rear wheel splines get a nice, light, smooth coating of the same Moly/Krytox mix I use on other splines. Works great, and as long as you don't overdo it, and use the Krytox, it will stay right where you put it.
BTW, before leaving the subject of Krytox... When you use it you will find it's white in color - a nice, almost pearlescent white. Funny, when I pulled my Super Tenere's splines apart for the first time I, like many others, found precious little lube there on the splines. However, what was there was a nice, pearlescent white paste. Makes me wonder if Yamaha uses a Krytox-like lubricant on the splines during factory assembly, and that's why we don't ever see much lube there... Maybe they don't need any more than what's there.
OK, last, but not least... If you are still somehow *worried* that your Super Tenere's rear coupler splines are somehow not well enough cushioned or lubricated, there's a way to alleviate your fears.
Just look for some of this stuff (it comes in two different packages, so I've shown both)...
Again, this stuff is not exactly cheap, but it's a great final drive additive. One tube will last you literally years since you use so little per final drive lube change. You simply add a bit of this to whatever final drive lubricant you prefer (mineral or synthetic) and you get all the benefits of Moly into that final drive coupler.
OK, sorry this went on so long, but I hope it helps some out there.
Dallara
* - well, the final drive pieces are very tough components on a Yamaha, as opposed to the BMW final drive components which are made out of the very finest mahogany, and/or potato chip ingredients available...
~
tubebender
Active Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
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2014 Site Supporter
Yeah, Krytox. I hated cleaning and repacking CV joints with that stuff.
So what do you use in your mix Dallara? GPL 205?
So what do you use in your mix Dallara? GPL 205?
tubebender said:
I'd have to go out and look, Carl...
But I think right now I'm using a tube of GPL 226.
Yeah, IIRC it's Krytox's incredible imperviousness to any solvent, etc. that makes it so hard to clean! But it sure likes to stay where you put it, eh?
I've been out of the open-wheel game for so long now (over a decade) that I'm sure things have moved right along there. And let's not forget just how much my feeble, senile mind had forgotten!!!
I can't remember now, but I think the tube of Krytox I've got now some kind soul gave me right out of his race box, but I think it's available through pretty regular channels for us mere mortals... McMaster-Carr, etc. Where do you race guys get it these days?
EDIT: Sure enough, Carl... What I'm using is GPL 226 - Lot # G3548
Just FYI...
Dallara
~
tubebender
Active Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
You and me both Allan. 95 Indy 500 was my last.Dallara said:I've been out of the open-wheel game for so long now (over a decade) that I'm sure things have moved right along there. And let's not forget just how much my feeble, senile mind had forgotten!!!
Amazon has GPL 205 and GPL 215 (this has the moly blended in but is not anti -corrosive). Sold by Hoerr Racing Products. Wonder if that's Irv Hoeer ---- yep, thats him, remember him from my IMSA days.
McMaster Carr has all of them.
I'll be changing tires this weekend or next. I have some Moly 60 but now that you've jogged my memory I'll have to get some ASAP so McMaster Carr it is.
Thanks for the reminder. ::008::
tubebender said:
Ah, yes... Indy 1995. One year after his "Penske Panzer" domination of '94 Roger's team endured one of the most famous meltdowns in Indy history... And that was the year they leased our back-up (a 1994 Reynard!!! We were running a 1995 Reynard-Ilmor...) from us to try, but they ended up attempting to qualify with Lola's from Rahal, along with their own cars, and still didn't make the field.
What a year!
Who were you with that year?
Damn, I could'a sworn you were still in the game, Carl!
Dallara
~
Guys in regards to not being able to get an extension in your 5/8 spark plug socket to get the front axle loose. I had the same issue. What I did was use a 5/8 hex socket in the end of the spark plug socket. Worked like a champ. Just in case you guys are in a pinch like I was and had to get the tire off that night and all the auto parts stores were closed!!
Three pages earlier in this thread is a list of things usable for the front axle. Like Mikef5000, I simply went to Home Depot and got a threaded rod coupler from the hardware aisle for a couple bucks. It lives in the bike tool kit.
Mikef5000 said:
peterl
New Member
does anybody know the torque settings for the 4 nuts on the final drive
30 ft-lb, but it is a difficult location to get a socket on these acorn nuts so using a box end and guesstimating is commonly done.peterl said:
- Mark
peterl said:
30 ft-lbs (42 Nm or 4.2 kg-m)
And I don't have any trouble getting my MAC click-off torque wrench in there to use with a deep 6-point socket.
Dallara
~
peterl
New Member
thanks for the info keep well
Thanks to the OP for this great blow by blow. I had my cush pads spill all over the place both removing and installing the wheel. Installing I had issue with the caliper retracting a little bit and I just was not paying attention - ended up being one of those "duh" moments when I finally figured out why things wouldn't go back together. I ended up using a couple of strips of blue painters tape to hold them in place while I fiddled around. Worked like a champ.
I had no luck getting my click type torque wrench on the drive shaft bolts with the wheel on and was too tired to take it all back apart for a final re-check of just those two so I ended up using the outside ones as a reference and doing it by hand.
I did have a fair amount of rust/corrosion in there on the pumpkin end of the drive shaft (7k miles). I got a lot but not all of it off.
I had no luck getting my click type torque wrench on the drive shaft bolts with the wheel on and was too tired to take it all back apart for a final re-check of just those two so I ended up using the outside ones as a reference and doing it by hand.
I did have a fair amount of rust/corrosion in there on the pumpkin end of the drive shaft (7k miles). I got a lot but not all of it off.