Power Vision 3, Let's Take A Look Inside Our ECU

[hulkss]

Hi siroco,
Without any data we would just be guessing what to do to improve your bike. The best approach is to collect some data. The PV-3 has data logging capability. With the software, or maybe on the unit itself connected to the bike, set it to log all the available channels as shown below. Riide until the bike is fully warmed up. Just before you ride in the area that causes trouble, pull the clutch and give the motor a couple quick revs, then ride in the problem zone. We will use the "rev marker" in the data to find the right area to look at. If the problem does not happen just repeat the process.

 

[siroco]

Thanks hulkss;
I don't have the PV3 device yet. I am evaluating the possibility of acquiring one for my 2018 EUROPEAN SUPER TENERE. I live in the Canary Islands and it is quite complicated to get a PV3 here due to tariff and customs policy.
Anyway, next Thursday I will take the bike to my YAMAHA dealer for the 20,000Kms service and I have already commented on the problem I am experiencing. The dealer says he's going to check the parameters and try to increase the co value by connecting a gas analyzer to the tailpipe. For my part I have downloaded the DYNOJET application and the file for the Super Ténéré using your link and I have been playing a bit even offline. The truth is that the number of parameters that the motorcycle's ECU has is surprising. I understand that with so many possibilities, there has to be a way to make the bike work as it should. Anyway, Iwould like to own a PV3 soon.
Excuse the automatic translation once again. I have sufficient knowledge of English but I do not have enough time. Google does it for me and it doesn't do it wrong.

 

[hulkss]

One simple thing to try is fuel injector cleaner in the gasoline. It can really help modern lean running engines. Techron works well, or any one that has P.E.A. as an active ingredient.

 

[pooh and xtine]

I’ve been pleased with the closed-loop-only PV3 remap provided by Dynojet UK for my 2021 ST. It has a different fuel map (richer up to 5k rpm and leaner above because it’s rich as stock) and mild timing advance. However, fuel consumption has increased 3-4 mpg, so I re-tried the stock map with O2 sensors, but disabled the deceleration fuel cut and richened up the low gear fuel enrichment map at the lowest revs and throttle openings. These two changes means you avoid banging helmets with your pillion when you cancel cruise from high speed, the sudden dead throttle pick up from low revs, and revs falling to nil when changing up through the gears (requiring preloading the gear lever and a careful half pull of the clutch lever!).

The PV3 is an expensive way to make such a simple, minimal change, but it makes the bike much better to ride compared with stock. Fuel consumption is back to normal. I don’t think it’s quite as fast as the Dynojet map, but then it’s no S1000XR is it?!

I may try disabling O2 sensors in gears 1-3 (just having them for cruising speeds in 4th - 6th), then a map where the O2 sensors only work above 2500rpm to avoid the low speed on/off/on/off in urban areas, but I doubt it’ll be substantially better than the simple changes I made today.

 

[hulkss]

I think you may have meant that the Dynojet UK tune was open-loop only (no O2 sensors) and that your fuel mileage (mpg) had decreased with it?

 

[pooh and xtine]

Doh, yes, the open loop map and yes it made it noticeably thirstier! It makes you wonder if all this dyno tuning and remapping is all a bit smoke, mirrors and snake oil…..

 

[hulkss]

It makes you wonder if all this dyno tuning and remapping is all a bit smoke, mirrors and snake oil…..

The bike is tuned very well as-is from Yamaha. Just a few tweaks can make a big difference in the riding experience as you have found. Bikes with a cat-delete and an open muffler can benefit a lot from tuning.

 

[pooh and xtine]

I agree with you - it looks like the stock base map is optimal and unless you modify the bike to flow more air (both intake and exhaust), there is little to be gained from traditional remapping.

It’s early days but it could well be that the improved drivability people experience from remapping is more of a by- product of excess fuel in the remapped alpha-n table, and that the same improvements can be more effectively achieved with other simple adjustments available in the ecu. The ecu is a superb bit of kit on the ST (and on Yamahas in general) with a huge range of adjustability. It’s a long, long way from Powercommanders!

 

[hulkss]

A bike engine will run fine over a fairly wide range of sub-optimal tuning as we used to experience every day with carbureted fuel delivery and vacuum/centrifugal advance ignition timing. The challenge is to cruise right on the edge of too lean to achieve the best possible fuel economy and low emissions. At the same time we want great performance and drivability.

 

[Mike112358]

Did you ever decide to get a PV-3 and if so were you able to make the changes (as in post 20) to your satisfaction?

It seems that the PV-3 is a very capable tool. If your powertrain is stock and you plan to keep it that way you can consider the following changes with the PV-3 if your bike is not performing to your liking.

1. Adjust throttle progressively to your preference. There is a huge range of adjustment possible. You could copy the gear 4-6 tables to gears 1-3 for example.
2. Adjust the engine braking to your preference, again a huge range of adjustment is possible.
3. Add acceleration enrichment to the lower gears. I think this will provide a noticeable improvement in throttle response.
4. Reduce the range of Closed-Loop control to match your top cruising speed and cruise throttle opening (use the PV-3 to log rpm and throttle opening), then add fuel to the Alpha N AFR factor table in the cells that are now open-loop, keeping the same basic profile to the fuel map.
5. Richen the fueling near and at idle by raising the minimum rpm for Closed-Loop control and add fuel to the Speed Density AFR table.

You can edit the table axis values if desired and there is an adaptive rescaling option where new cell values are automatically interpolated for the new axis.

These changes can personalize the bike to you without altering the design intent from Yamaha, risking engine damage, or tossing out the emission controls.

 

[hulkss]

Yes, I have a PV3 now. I am on a road trip with a new tune that works great. I’ll post more about it when I return in about a week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[siroco]

Waiting for the feedback too

 

[hulkss]

Starting a new thread in the ECU Maps area. HERE

 

[hoihoi55]

Next: What about closed loop operation with the narrow band O2 (Lambda) sensors? The table that enables it is called Adaptive Learning.
If the engine is not accelerating (you are cruising), this table (same in all gears) shows when the ECU enters closed-loop control.

View attachment 89474

Bottom LIne: The ECU is using the O2 sensors for feedback and operating near to a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio at throttle openings below 40% while cruising below 5000 rpm. What if you put in gas with 10% alcohol? The ECU will automatically compensate because the sensors actually measure the Lambda Ratio not the Air/Fuel ratio. If you open the throttle to accelerate, the engine will automatically go open-loop and enrichen the air/fuel ratio, so, closed loop mode does not hurt performance. Just set the red cells to zero and say bye-bye to Adaptive Learning Mode if you wish.

First of all, thank you for all the amazing information. I wished dynojet gave more info about certain things....

I hope you can answer 2 questions i have

1. I want to put my bike in fully open loop mode (i want to adjust it on the dyno with the right AFR).
Do i only need to disable the 'adaptive learning enabled alpha n' or do i also need to disable the 'adaptvie learning enabled speed density'?

2. I have a local friend / mechanic who has a dyno at his workplace. He tells me to disable the closed loop mode so he can make an fully open loop map for me. Dynojet themself said they wouldn't recommend to disable the closed loop mode, and they are suggestion me to buy an wideband o2 sensor.
Which of the 2 options is better? closed loop with wideband or fully open loop dyno-ing?

Again thank you for all the usefull information!

 

[hulkss]

First of all, thank you for all the amazing information. I wished dynojet gave more info about certain things....

I hope you can answer 2 questions i have

1. I want to put my bike in fully open loop mode (i want to adjust it on the dyno with the right AFR).
Do i only need to disable the 'adaptive learning enabled alpha n' or do i also need to disable the 'adaptvie learning enabled speed density'?

2. I have a local friend / mechanic who has a dyno at his workplace. He tells me to disable the closed loop mode so he can make an fully open loop map for me. Dynojet themself said they wouldn't recommend to disable the closed loop mode, and they are suggestion me to buy an wideband o2 sensor.
Which of the 2 options is better? closed loop with wideband or fully open loop dyno-ing?

Again thank you for all the usefull information!

You need to disable adaptive learning for both Speed Density and Alpha N as the bike uses both modes.

When tuning you want to be running without the narrow band O2 sensors in the loop, however, you should have Wideband sensor(s) in the exhaust so the bike can be tuned properly by recording the output from the Wideband sensors. The sensors must be installed before the Catalytic Converter. The Wideband information is used to build new airflow volumetric efficiency (VE) tables specifically for your bike's setup.

After tuning on the dyno, you can run without the Narrow band O2 sensors if you tune rich enough to be safe. Using the O2 sensors lets you tune for great cruise fuel economy and the bike goes open loop automatically during acceleration and heavy throttle so there is no down side on performance. O2 sensors wide band or narrow band are too slow to work during acceleration and quick applications of throttle.

Be sure to look at my thread in the ECU Maps area. You can have your bike's VE tables tuned by your friend using a Wideband sensor as I mentioned above (do NOT do dyno tuning without a proper Wideband sensor). Once the VE tables are established on the dyno, you can use them in the tune I posted. You can also use the tune I posted "as-is" if your bike is basically stock.

 

[hoihoi55]

You need to disable adaptive learning for both Speed Density and Alpha N as the bike uses both modes.

When tuning you want to be running without the narrow band O2 sensors in the loop, however, you should have Wideband sensor(s) in the exhaust so the bike can be tuned properly by recording the output from the Wideband sensors. The sensors must be installed before the Catalytic Converter. The Wideband information is used to build new airflow volumetric efficiency (VE) tables specifically for your bike's setup.

After tuning on the dyno, you can run without the Narrow band O2 sensors if you tune rich enough to be safe. Using the O2 sensors lets you tune for great cruise fuel economy and the bike goes open loop automatically during acceleration and heavy throttle so there is no down side on performance. O2 sensors wide band or narrow band are too slow to work during acceleration and quick applications of throttle.

Be sure to look at my thread in the ECU Maps area. You can have your bike's VE tables tuned by your friend using a Wideband sensor as I mentioned above (do NOT do dyno tuning without a proper Wideband sensor). Once the VE tables are established on the dyno, you can use them in the tune I posted. You can also use the tune I posted "as-is" if your bike is basically stock.

Thank you for your comprehensive anwser!
I disabled the adaptive learning for Speed Density and Alpha N. Further i don't think i have to disable any (adaptive learning) settings to disable closed loop mode, right?

We have an external o2 sensor that we will place in the exhaust. So no need for me to install a wideband sensor.

Again thank you very much for your posts about the Powercore / powervision software! I own a yamaha mt09 but this is the only forum where somebody (you) posted detailed information about the powercore settings. No information at all on the Fz09 forum.

My mechanic knows very well how to adjust the AFR but has no experience with the adaptive learning, so without you we wouldn't figure out how to disable it.

 

[hulkss]

Thank you for your comprehensive anwser!
I disabled the adaptive learning for Speed Density and Alpha N. Further i don't think i have to disable any (adaptive learning) settings to disable closed loop mode, right?

We have an external o2 sensor that we will place in the exhaust. So no need for me to install a wideband sensor.

Again thank you very much for your posts about the Powercore / powervision software! I own a yamaha mt09 but this is the only forum where somebody (you) posted detailed information about the powercore settings. No information at all on the Fz09 forum.

My mechanic knows very well how to adjust the AFR but has no experience with the adaptive learning, so without you we wouldn't figure out how to disable it.

Yes, the O2 closed loop mode is not on if adaptive learning is disabled.

Correcting the volumetric (VE) tables is the main goal on the dyno. Some dyno operators will change the VEs to make the bike leaner or richer. This is NOT good practice. The VE tables should be set to their true correct values. AFR is controlled by separate tables where target Lambda ratios for fueling are set.

Be sure to look at this thread and post about your tuning experience: Tuning with Power Vision 3

 

[Dpatt711]

Are these tables for a pre or post 14?

 

[hulkss]

The PV3 is for Gen II bikes.

 

[ThaiXT]

hi, what a great post can you create a new account for the C3 tuning software or does it have to be a particular login? Many many thanks