Power Vision 3, Let's Take A Look Inside Our ECU

[Don in Lodi]

The BARO is a KOEO, key on engine off, function in the MAP sensor. When going from sea level to ten thousand feet in one run you need to cycle the key at least once near the top.

 

[hulkss]

So it is not a separate sensor. Well, it will fuel OK except for when it is operating in Alpha N mode. I have a mountain ride coming up and the elevation profile looks like this: The chart grid is 1800 miles wide and 14000 feet high. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Jlq1969]

Yes, see the drive-by-wire comments in the first post of this thread.

You can certainly program the throttle to open farther and faster at low to mid rpm in the first three gears. I'm not sure if you would get more power, but you will certainly feel the power come on faster.

The only significant "restriction" I see is the lack of Acceleration Enrichment in the first three gears.

I don't know if I'm wrong, if you correct me it would be better, but from what I understand in the graph, from 1000/1300 rpm, the relationship between the throttle twist and the butterflies position would be linear: 1 to 1 ?…..what if the idle is within that range, would the relationship between the two be linear?….I ask because if the engine is not running (With ignition in on),the butterflies will remain closed, no matter how much you turn the throttle

 

[hulkss]

Interesting question, I assume you may be wondering what happens during start-up.

Here's the details of throttle position with the transmission in neutral (not the complete table):



It looks like we can get at most 12% throttle at 0 rpm (the table only goes down to 50 rpm).

I assume the throttle is left untouched (closed) during a normal start. I can't see the starting tables with the PV-3. Typically a bike will select a starting routine based on engine temperature and air intake temperature. You will get a fast idle if cold that settles down as the engine warms up.

If for some reason the engine gets flooded, I believe you should turn the throttle wide open. With the engine not running, this action will typically turn off the fuel injectors and open the throttle butterfly valves. This should clear the flooded condition. It also allows an engine compression check without pumping fuel into the engine (spark plugs are removed for a compression check).

 

[Jlq1969]

Interesting question, I assume you may be wondering what happens during start-up.

Here's the details of throttle position with the transmission in neutral (not the complete table):

View attachment 89573

It looks like we can get at most 12% throttle at 0 rpm (the table only goes down to 50 rpm).

I assume the throttle is left untouched (closed) during a normal start. I can't see the starting tables with the PV-3. Typically a bike will select a starting routine based on engine temperature and air intake temperature. You will get a fast idle if cold that settles down as the engine warms up.

If for some reason the engine gets flooded, I believe you should turn the throttle wide open. With the engine not running, this action will typically turn off the fuel injectors and open the throttle butterfly valves. This should clear the flooded condition. It also allows an engine compression check without pumping fuel into the engine (spark plugs are removed for a compression check).

I remembered that there was a video of the butterflies

 

[hulkss]

Thanks for posting that. The throttle plate does open a little if you open the throttle grip when starting, not much is required as there is very little flow at cranking rpm. It's not clear if there is any fuel reduction to aid in clearing a flooded engine with the throttle wide open.

 

[Tenman]

This is way above my pay-grade, but it does make fascinating reading!

the colors are nice too

 

[Sierra1]

Hope there won't be a test at the end of this.

 

[hulkss]

Please keep in mind the following comments are hypothetical, I do not own a PV-3.

Let's look at tuning the engine for a new muffler or exhaust system. If you leave the Air Fuel Ratio as is, you will be correcting the Volumetric Efficiency (VE) tables for the increased air flow of the modified exhaust. If you want to run a different AFR map as well, change that with the AFR factor tables.

You will need a PV-3 for the Super Ténéré, a DynoJet Yamaha Wideband Kit for PV-3, Oxygen Sensor Eliminators and Oxygen sensor port plugs.

Dynojet only offers a single channel Wideband kit. This saves money but we have to tune one cylinder at a time.

Without going into detail, the tuning process could proceed as follows:

1. Remove the stock narrowband O2 sensors and plug one port. Put the wide band sensor in the open port and install the wideband kit.
2. Disable adaptive learning in the tune file as there are no O2 sensors (the bike does not see the new wideband sensor).
3. Enter the stock or your desired target AFR map in TuneLab. Put the same map into the AFR factor tables in the tune file if you are deviating from stock.
4. Setup data logging and load the tune file into the ECU.
5. Run the bike on a dyno or ride over a wide range of conditions.
6. Download the log file and have TuneLab calculate corrections. After inspection, save the corrected tune file.
7. Repeat until corrections are minimal. Repeat on the other cylinder.
8. Leave the O2 sensors out if you richened up the cruise fueling more than a couple percent in the AFR factor tables. Otherwise, you can re-enable adaptive learning and reinstall the factory O2 sensors.

Bottom Line: For me, this is way too much work and expense for the gains that a modified exhaust brings. If I feel the need, I will get a PV-3 and do the much simpler "try it and see" tweaks listed in post #20 of this thread.

 

[Bose]

I’m just happy mines as standard as when it left Japan
If I want easy fuelling I ride in tour mode and if I feel the need for speed then ,we’ll we all know that mode .

 

[Madhatter]

dear professor Hulkss , a version for dummies please .....

 

[pooh and xtine]

Dynojet UK provided me with a custom map for my PV3 which has adaptive learning (O2 sensors) disabled, fuel cut disabled, a richer fuel (Alpha N) map, mild timing advance in gears 2-6 and the usual lower fan temperatures. It takes 10 seconds to reflash the ecu once you've connected the PV3 to the OBD2 plug close to the battery. It's much better to ride and a little quicker than stock, but fuel consumption is higher by 2-3 mpg as you would expect (partly because it encourages you to give it more beans!).

 

[hulkss]

Doynjet USA sent me tune file as well. All it did was lower the fan temp 10 degrees F, raise the rev limit 300 rpm, and advance the spark timing 2 degrees. I don't want to do any of those things.
The fan temps are OK as is, I'm not going to ride at 8550 rpm, and sometimes I can not get 91 octane fuel. So, pretty worthless to me.

 

[hulkss]

Dynojet UK provided me with a custom map for my PV3 which has adaptive learning (O2 sensors) disabled, fuel cut disabled, a richer fuel (Alpha N) map, mild timing advance in gears 2-6 and the usual lower fan temperatures. It takes 10 seconds to reflash the ecu once you've connected the PV3 to the OBD2 plug close to the battery. It's much better to ride and a little quicker than stock, but fuel consumption is higher by 2-3 mpg as you would expect (partly because it encourages you to give it more beans!).

In my opinion, there are many good reasons to NOT eliminate the adaptive learning and O2 sensors. Closed loop control with O2 sensors compensates perfectly for changing conditions of temperature and altitude. Another very important benefit is automatic compensation for fuel with varying amounts of alcohol. I sometimes have to fill with fuel containing 10% alcohol (gasoline with 10% ethanol needs to be fueled four percent richer than pure gasoline). The closed loop "lean burn cruise" part of the ECU control provides for cruising with good fuel economy and low carbon build-up from unburned hydrocarbons. It does not apply to operation at high rpm, high power, or unsteady conditions like acceleration.

As soon as more power is demanded with a throttle grip twist, the ECU goes open loop into Alpha N control. Initially, it should also apply acceleration enrichment. It is possible with the PV-3 to improve drivability and throttle response without resorting to removal of the O2 sensors.

 

[Jlq1969]

Doynjet USA sent me tune file as well. All it did was lower the fan temp 10 degrees F, raise the rev limit 300 rpm, and advance the spark timing 2 degrees. I don't want to do any of those things.
The fan temps are OK as is, I'm not going to ride at 8550 rpm, and sometimes I can not get 91 octane fuel. So, pretty worthless to me.

It would be useless for the S10 engine to rotate at 8550 rpm. Maximum HP is reached at 7250 rpm. If the engine of the S10 can rotate at most up to 8250 but the maximum Hp is reached at 7250…..probably at those 1000 rpm you must have “hidden” between 10-20% more real HP….that “inefficiency ”volumetric beyond 7250 rpm…..it is a consequence of the “volumetric efficiency” that is down here at 6000 rpm which is where it gives you 11.9kgm of torque, which is a very good ratio, if you compare it with any other motorcycle adventure of similar displacement, that is to say, it is more of the diesel type…
If you want more HP, you have to sacrifice torque or increase the rpm where it is delivered…..and this is hidden in the camshafts( and his design)..maybe something in the compression too, many other bikes with similar displacement, the compression is above 12:1…..this forces you to use premium fuel….but the difference between 11:1 to 12:1…..is like a horse kick

 

[pooh and xtine]

In my opinion, there are many good reasons to NOT eliminate the adaptive learning and O2 sensors. Closed loop control with O2 sensors compensates perfectly for changing conditions of temperature and altitude. Another very important benefit is automatic compensation for fuel with varying amounts of alcohol. I sometimes have to fill with fuel containing 10% alcohol (gasoline with 10% ethanol needs to be fueled four percent richer than pure gasoline). The closed loop "lean burn cruise" part of the ECU control provides for cruising with good fuel economy and low carbon build-up from unburned hydrocarbons. It does not apply to operation at high rpm, high power, or unsteady conditions like acceleration.

As soon as more power is demanded with a throttle grip twist, the ECU goes open loop into Alpha N control. Initially, it should also apply acceleration enrichment. It is possible with the PV-3 to improve drivability and throttle response without resorting to removal of the O2 sensors.

Dynojet UK didn’t recommend the US map for the ST, so they dyno developed a custom one for my set up. I dislike the on/off effect of narrow band O2 sensors. You can recreate the beautiful throttle response of a Honda Super Blackbird if you run open loop all the time with a good map! Most ST remaps involve disabling adaptive learning.

However, in line with your suggestions I will have a play with variations on a closed loop theme when the weather improves!

 

[hulkss]

Dynojet UK didn’t recommend the US map for the ST, so they dyno developed a custom one for my set up. I dislike the on/off effect of narrow band O2 sensors. You can recreate the beautiful throttle response of a Honda Super Blackbird if you run open loop all the time with a good map! Most ST remaps involve disabling adaptive learning.

However, in line with your suggestions I will have a play with variations on a closed loop theme when the weather improves!

Most tuners delete the narrowband O2 sensors because they are disabled while tuning and they just leave the bike as it is when tuning. It's more difficult and time consuming to complete the tuning process when you have to accommodate switching in and out of closed loop control and do a good job of it. Most customers have the preconceived idea that the O2 sensors are making their bike run bad or limiting performance, so, another reason to delete them.

 

[siroco]

Hi!
A great lesson, this is really a discovery for me.
I have a question. If I only want a smoother throttle response, for example in city or busy road situations which needs to keep the bike between 2k-3k rpm at low speeds like 20-40kms/h I suppose I only need to put a zero in the close loop adaptive learning. For all rpms? I own a 2018 Euro4 ZE

 

[hulkss]

Hi!
A great lesson, this is really a discovery for me.
I have a question. If I only want a smoother throttle response, for example in city or busy road situations which needs to keep the bike between 2k-3k rpm at low speeds like 20-40kms/h I suppose I only need to put a zero in the close loop adaptive learning. For all rpms? I own a 2018 Euro4 ZE

Is the issue that the engine does not run well or that it is difficult to manage the throttle smoothly?

 

[siroco]

Thank you for taking an interest in my questions.
What I feel on the bike when I'm going slow is that if I try to keep the throttle in a constant position and I try to keep it at a constant speed, the injection is not constant. I guess what is happening is that the combination of rpm, bike speed and throttle position that I am using results in a response from the oxygen sensor, which commands a fuel reduction to maintain the AFR programmed by YAMAHA. The problem is that the bike enters an "all or nothing" loop, that is, the bike does not have enough precision to regulate the mixture in certain circumstances, causing a loop of excess-lack-excess-lack of fuel that causes a hiccup uncomfortable for me. Sorry for the Google translation.



Gracias por interesarte en mis preguntas.
Lo que siento en la moto cuando voy lento es que si trato de mantener el acelerador en una posición constante y trato de mantenerlo a una velocidad constante, la inyección no es constante. Supongo que lo que sucede es que la combinación de rpm, velocidad de la bicicleta y posición del acelerador que estoy usando da como resultado una respuesta del sensor de oxígeno, que ordena una reducción de combustible para mantener el AFR programado por YAMAHA. El problema es que la moto entra en un bucle de "todo o nada", es decir, la moto no tiene la precisión suficiente para regular la mezcla en determinadas circunstancias, provocando un bucle de exceso-falta-exceso-falta de combustible que provoca hipo. incómodo para mí. Lo siento por la traducción de Google.