Pad change

Jeff Milleman

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I was running Hard up in the mountains trying to keep up with the old timer ,coming into the corners at hi speed and never once did i feel brake fade or felt I didn't have full brake control , to me its about the feed back and lever control. You may be able to hit the ABS with less force using the other pads but its about understanding your machine to me , I like the set up ::012::
 

SHUMBA

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From a technical point of view, Nikolajsen is correct. If a break pad can lock the rotor (or trigger the ABS) then that break pad is doing it's job properly. However, the harder break pads (probably more expensive) may require less force on the break lever to lock the rotor (or trigger the ABS) then the softer pads.

Since we're going scientific, if you're stopping a bike from 100 kph to 0 kph over a distance of, say, 150 meters, different break pads may require different force on the break lever to achieve the objective. But the same kinetic energy has to be converted to the same amount of heat to stop the bike (the basics of the Law of Conservation of Energy). Consequently, the softer break pads would require more force to transform this kinetic energy to heat.

Naturally, this assumes similar tyres, since kinetic energy is converted to heat not only at the rotor, but also at the tyres.
Totally agree more force on the brake pads (heavier brake pressure with your foot and or front brake lever. This creates more friction or kinetic energy which means more heat or more energy to clamp the rotor. If you're really concerned about braking, ensure that you have good tires with minimal wear.
SHUMBA
 

Xclimation

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I know this is an older thread....
But to me the brakes and ABS are great on our bikes. My first bike with ABS. For me the pads and ABS kicking is just right to the limits of where I can hang on and/or maintain control. For me, stopping any quicker will result in me not being able to hang on and/or losing control. I'm in decent physical condition. What am I doing wrong?
 

SHUMBA

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I know this is an older thread....
But to me the brakes and ABS are great on our bikes. My first bike with ABS. For me the pads and ABS kicking is just right to the limits of where I can hang on and/or maintain control. For me, stopping any quicker will result in me not being able to hang on and/or losing control. I'm in decent physical condition. What am I doing wrong?
All said and done with this very informative discussion about brakes and the components.
As I understand, ABS brakes are installed on most new vehicles (cars and motorcycles) to allow the driver/rider to use the maximum energy available to slow or stop the vehicle without locking up the tyres (tires).
Most critical with our two wheelers.
Now, I feel this is worth mentioning: if we apply maximum braking, it is for a very good reason, to avoid an obstacle.
Another vehicle, a deer or whatever. With maximum braking applied, continue to steer the bike away from the obstacle, remember the tyres are still rotating. Don't fixate on what you are trying to avoid, with the brakes applied also steer clear of the obstacle.
The best way/place to practice this is in a vacant parking lot using a cone or or other soft obstacle placed on the ground.
Just my 2 pence worth, ha ha I live in Canada.
SHUMBA


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Xclimation

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All said and done with this very informative discussion about brakes and the components.
As I understand, ABS brakes are installed on most new vehicles (cars and motorcycles) to allow the driver/rider to use the maximum energy available to slow or stop the vehicle without locking up the tyres (tires).
Most critical with our two wheelers.
Now, I feel this is worth mentioning: if we apply maximum braking, it is for a very good reason, to avoid an obstacle.
Another vehicle, a deer or whatever. With maximum braking applied, continue to steer the bike away from the obstacle, remember the tyres are still rotating. Don't fixate on what you are trying to avoid, with the brakes applied also steer clear


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What I was meaning is that with the stock pads, the bike stops more than quickly enough for me. If the bike stopped any quicker, I'd fly over the handlebars or lose control of the bike. I don't need or want any more bite or stopping power as the bike stops quickly enough. Especially with the ABS, I can stop even quicker and not worry about sliding or rear tire kick out. My rhetorical question of "What am I doing wrong?" Was meant to say that I have more than enough stopping power with stock pads. I don't get how anyone could hang on with any more stopping power. I think if anyone doesn't think the bike stops quick enough for them; then it reaction time/reflexes. I do practice from time to time in a parking lot. I've been riding for a loooooong time and even ride just about daily in rush hour traffic...having said this.....each bike is different and ones' experience is as good as how much experience they have on their current bike.....But even though I've been riding over 40 years....I will acknowledge that I still need practice and not afraid to learn something new...especially as bikes and traffic have changed quite a bit through the years!
 

EricV

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All said and done with this very informative discussion about brakes and the components.
As I understand, ABS brakes are installed on most new vehicles (cars and motorcycles) to allow the driver/rider to use the maximum energy available to slow or stop the vehicle without locking up the tyres (tires).
Well, you sort of skipped a bit of stuff there. ABS does not allow the driver/rider to use the maximum energy available to slow or stop the vehicle w/o locking up the tires. Brakes do that. And applied fully, the ABS will indeed, in most cases, lock up the wheel(s).

What the ABS system is doing is mimicking threshold braking w/o the operator having to be skilled at threshold braking, and allowing them to do so on the first try w/o operator skills required. With ABS the wheel(s) will lock/release/lock/release repeatedly as a facet of the ABS system, maximizing the braking force and friction available, if it works correctly.

When it doesn't work correctly, it releases too often and the vehicle doesn't stop. This occurs with many ABS systems off pavement or in scenarios when only one of the four wheels has no braking traction, (for autos). That's mostly to do with poorly written code in the system and poor quality system design. Some work vastly better than others.

Even the most skilled person at threshold braking will not be able to match a high quality ABS system on the first try over wet pavement, sand, slick manhole covers, etc. Thus the beauty of ABS, it saves us when we mis-read the conditions or are surprised by unusual conditions.
 

Sierra1

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Yup, I've ALWAYS thought of ABS as "life insurance". Always there when you need it....but, you really don't want to. I've NEVER planned on using ABS, either in a car, or on a bike; it has just showed up. But, I'm with Xclimation, I don't have any complaints with the brakes; as a matter of fact, I like them a lot.
 

SHUMBA

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What I was meaning is that with the stock pads, the bike stops more than quickly enough for me. If the bike stopped any quicker, I'd fly over the handlebars or lose control of the bike. I don't need or want any more bite or stopping power as the bike stops quickly enough. Especially with the ABS, I can stop even quicker and not worry about sliding or rear tire kick out. My rhetorical question of "What am I doing wrong?" Was meant to say that I have more than enough stopping power with stock pads. I don't get how anyone could hang on with any more stopping power. I think if anyone doesn't think the bike stops quick enough for them; then it reaction time/reflexes. I do practice from time to time in a parking lot. I've been riding for a loooooong time and even ride just about daily in rush hour traffic...having said this.....each bike is different and ones' experience is as good as how much experience they have on their current bike.....But even though I've been riding over 40 years....I will acknowledge that I still need practice and not afraid to learn something new...especially as bikes and traffic have changed quite a bit through the years!
I totally agree with you.
Every bike is different, my Africa Twin is lighter than my Tenere but the Africa Twin will come to a halt sooner.
We can always learn something new, and hopefully not the hard way.
Occasional practising manoeuvres and emergency braking in a controlled environment can pay huge dividends when faced with a situation on the road.
My observations tell me that a lot of riders become complacent and their riding skills are minimal. Keep learning...
SHUMBA

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PhilPhilippines

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Quickest way to stop:
1) Threshold braking: this is the point JUST BEFORE locking the wheel, at the limit point of slip (approx 15% for most vehicles, but Checkwrecks will confirm as he is involved in collision forensics)

2) ABS: the braking force has exceeded the the limit of grip, so takes marginally longer than threshold braking. ABS allows steering and, as has already been stated, is the savior of those with less sensitive technique. (I believe ABS leaves a very slight scuffing of tyre compound on the road surface...Checkwrecks?)

3) Cadence (ABS off/non ABS): rhythmically locking and releasing the wheels. This is easier in cars than bikes, but is similar to a very undeveloped ABS and allows steering and is helpful in build up of material (snow/gravel) on loose surfaces to decrease stopping distances. ABS is not good on snow/gravel as many know.

4) Skidding (ABS off/non ABS): takes the longest distance to stop as the tyre is sliding over and not gripping into the road surface.

Other techniques that affect stopping distances are hint: milliseconds prior to fully applying the brakes for maximum retardation a small "hint" prepares the suspension, brakes and tyres for what is about to transpire, reducing stopping distances slightly. Modulation - at high speeds the brakes can be applied with extremely high force without risk of locking (when straight). It is only as the speed is scrubbed off that the pressure needs to be modulated in order to get the maximum speed reduction (threshold) and not lock up/activate ABS.

In an emergency and often in inclement conditions ABS is a life a life saver. All bets are off. hint, threshold, modulation etc, all goes out of the window and just getting the thing slowed down is the key - that is when ABS is in its element.
 
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ballisticexchris

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One thing that I found amazing is it is impossible for me to out-brake the computer. The unified braking system is a game changer. I tried dozens of times to hit the rear brake then do my normal threshold. Then tried threshold only. All in the same section over and over and over. Then I would grab a fistful of front brake and let the computer do it. It was always way shorter braking distance.

As far as pad changes I'm going to stick with OEM until the rotors wear out then do a full Galfer brake system with front floating rotors, rear rotors, pads and brake lines.
 

Boris

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One thing that I found amazing is it is impossible for me to out-brake the computer. The unified braking system is a game changer. I tried dozens of times to hit the rear brake then do my normal threshold. Then tried threshold only. All in the same section over and over and over. Then I would grab a fistful of front brake and let the computer do it. It was always way shorter braking distance.

As far as pad changes I'm going to stick with OEM until the rotors wear out then do a full Galfer brake system with front floating rotors, rear rotors, pads and brake lines.
The front discs are licensed by Galfer. Not exactly sure what that means. Made by Galfer, made to Galfer spec by Yamaha?
 

Longdog Cymru

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Really? Better brakes will stop you quicker, and engage the ABS sooner, in a shorter distance. The EBC pads are HH as were the original pads that I took out (was stamped on the back of the pad, along with the brand, Sumitomo).

I'm quite shocked that you think the only thing is the force on the lever?

I'm quite happy to sacrifice quicker disc wear for better braking. I used HH EBC pads for 45k miles on my previous bike, the discs were well within limit at approaching 60k miles.

The brakes don't only feel like they have improved, they have.
I’m with Boris on this. I will always use EBC HH brake pads. They definitely do change the feel of the braking system and give a nice, positive feel. You really can modulate your braking and feel the braking effect through the lever.
 

Sierra1

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I don't like ABS on ice. I love ABS when someone doesn't see me, and pulls out in front of me. Back in the day, under controlled conditions, it was possible to stop quicker/shorter without ABS. Even then there wasn't a drastic difference. With the improvements in ABS, there's no freakin' way to stop quicker/shorter. Still stickin' with OE everything.
 

PhilPhilippines

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With the improvements in ABS, there's no freakin' way to stop quicker/shorter.
ABS reacts to poor control inputs, so that is not strictly true. Threshold braking is still the fastest way to stop a vehicle, however, you are correct in a way as the majority of drivers/riders do not have the ability to threshold brake consistently and that is when ABS comes to their rescue - particularly when in panic stop situations!
 

SilverBullet

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Do Moto GP bikes have ABS or TCS?

I remember reading a ABS test from a pro or expert dirt rider. He could not best or match stop distances with ABS off.

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ballisticexchris

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Threshold braking is still the fastest way to stop a vehicle,
On a non ABS vehicle yes. Still, it is darn near impossible to out brake the computer on this bike. When I first got my Super Tenere I tried every way possible to out brake the Unified system. It proved to be impossible. I tried different body positions, rear brake first (to deactivate Unified system), threshold braking, etc.

The very quickest way to stop this bike in high traction conditions is to simply grab a fistful of front brake and let the computer do it's thing. It's kind of spooky. In low traction conditions I have not tried.

I continue to just brake like I normally have done on all my previous bikes without the ABS/Unified braking. I can see where this technology is great but a curse at the same time. For new riders it can be a life saver for sure.

I'm happy to have it. Anyway you slice it, as you age your reflexes deteriorate and these features are welcome.
 

PhilPhilippines

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On a non ABS vehicle yes. Still, it is darn near impossible to out brake the computer on this bike. When I first got my Super Tenere I tried every way possible to out brake the Unified system. It proved to be impossible. I tried different body positions, rear brake first (to deactivate Unified system), threshold braking, etc.

The very quickest way to stop this bike in high traction conditions is to simply grab a fistful of front brake and let the computer do it's thing. It's kind of spooky. In low traction conditions I have not tried.

I continue to just brake like I normally have done on all my previous bikes without the ABS/Unified braking. I can see where this technology is great but a curse at the same time. For new riders it can be a life saver for sure.

I'm happy to have it. Anyway you slice it, as you age your reflexes deteriorate and these features are welcome.
I agree. I am just putting it out there. As I said, the majority (including me) cannot threshold brake 100% of the time (I am not in any way a good bike rider). However, there are those that can, but again, without the consistency that ABS does.

The one thing that ABS does is brake with near ruthless efficiency - and with the advantage of being able to steer as well. That is something ALL of us need in near collision experiences as even Rossi will have difficulty is massaging the ''limit point envelope'' whilst staring at the side of an elk.
 

PhilPhilippines

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Do Moto GP bikes have ABS or TCS?

I remember reading a ABS test from a pro or expert dirt rider. He could not best or match stop distances with ABS off.

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On the road, I would leave ABS and TCS "on" all the time, as none of us are as good as the electronic systems that are available today in "panic" situations.

One caveat is that, if you have activated these systems, then you should take a good, hard look at what caused them to be activated (you) and make adjustments.

One thing you should switch off is ''hill-assist''. If this cannot be turned off a sledge hammer can encourage it to activate less.
 
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