Oil pan thread is shot

[talreli]

Found out during a my last oil change that the M12X1.5 bolt has stripped the oil pan threads

I was looking to either drill and tap to the next size bolt (M14X1.5) or use something like the Time-Sert kit to keep the original bolt size.

http://www.mechanicstoolsandbits.com/metric-kits-time-sert-1215-m12-15mm-metric-thread-repair-kit-p-148.html?gclid=CLOL8fzG7ccCFY8WHwodH_QM0A

Appreciate any thoughts on either approaches or other options.

 

[yz454]

Go to an auto parts store and they should an over sized self tapping oil drain plugs . Easy fix .

 

[caillou]

Also, buy a torque wrench

 

[OldRider]

A stripped 12mm drain plug hole is the perfect size to tap out to a 1/2x20 standard auto drain plug. I've probably fixed at least 25 Honda four wheelers with stripped 12mm drain holes this way. Drilling it out to 14 mm is too much. Another solution is to just replace the pan. The self taping drain plugs work ok in a thin steel auto oil pan, but they're not for a deep threaded aluminum pan.

 

[Don in Lodi]

A stripped 12mm drain plug hole is the perfect size to tap out to a 1/2x20 standard auto drain plug. I've probably fixed at least 25 Honda four wheelers with stripped 12mm drain holes this way. Drilling it out to 14 mm is too much. Another solution is to just replace the pan. The self taping drain plugs work ok in a thin steel auto oil pan, but they're not for a deep threaded aluminum pan.

::008::

A Tip for the pre-drilling when going to the half inch tap; fill the flutes of the drill bit with thick tacky grease and use low speed. The chips will stick to the grease. Same with the tap, grease 'er up. The ultimate of course is to drop the pan so you don't have to stand on your head to do the repair. With the pan off to do the repair, it's then easier to put a new pan on.

 

[OldRider]

::008::

A Tip for the pre-drilling when going to the half inch tap; fill the flutes of the drill bit with thick tacky grease and use low speed. The chips will stick to the grease. Same with the tap, grease 'er up. The ultimate of course is to drop the pan so you don't have to stand on your head to do the repair. With the pan off to do the repair, it's then easier to put a new pan on.

Shouldn't even have to drill it. All the stripped 12mm holes I've fixed were ready for the 1/2 tap. Do put grease or hard oil as we call it in KY on the tap to catch the metal.

 

[Don in Lodi]

Shouldn't even have to drill it. All the stripped 12mm holes I've fixed were ready for the 1/2 tap. Do put grease or hard oil as we call it in KY on the tap to catch the metal.

Perfect!

 

[mrpete64]

I agree with one comment....get a good torque wrench that you can set to avoid this issue. Someone must have given this bolt some hellish twist when putting it back in.

Mr. Pete------->
aging hippie

 

[EricV]

I agree with one comment....get a good torque wrench that you can set to avoid this issue. Someone must have given this bolt some hellish twist when putting it back in.

I'll be the contrarian - It's probably stripped because someone was using a torque wrench. : The torque spec is for dry threads. An oil pan plug is instantly lubricated threads once it's in service and trying to torque to to the dry spec will significantly over tighten it. It's an oil pan plug, it needs to just be tightened until it stops against the washer, (you did use washers, right?), then snugged a tiny bit more and it's fine. The actual torque value is moot. It's not a moving part, it's not holding a moving part. The value is intended to prevent damage, but it's the wrong value since engineers always use dry torque specs and every spec in the FSM is dry torque unless otherwise noted.

Few drain plugs get stripped because someone reefed on a regular wrench or ratchet so hard they did damage. But a long handled torque wrench gives a lot more leverage. Add to that the incorrect dry thread torque spec being used and yes, it's surprisingly easy to strip the aluminum threads. Note that a further problem is the torque wrench itself! Many average +/- 25% error depending on where you are in the range.

Torque wrenches are generally set at the middle of the range and err on either side of that to some degree, becoming less accurate the farther away from the middle of the range you are. This is even true of high quality tools, but can be extreme in budget quality tools. Because of this, try not to use a big torque wrench at the bottom of it's range for anything important. It's likely going to be inaccurate and the potential for a problem is greater.

Skip the torque wrench!!

If you just can't stop yourself, don't try to tighten it to the spec listed in the manual. That is a dry thread specification. Reduce that by 20% for wet torque and you'll be better off.

I have two main torque wrenches, one is a fairly standard 30-150 ft/lb version, the other is a 50-250 in/lb version. (12 in/lbs = 1 ft/lb) If you do the math, you will see that they don't quite over lap, the in/lb version only going up to slightly over 20 ft/lbs, but the two cover 95% of my needs. These happen to be Mac Tools with metal internals and have been calibrated. Note that you should always store your 'clicker' type torque wrenches backed off to zero or the minimum setting to avoid fatiguing the spring which will accelerate the error factor of the tool.

 

[OldRider]

I'll be the contrarian - It's probably stripped because someone was using a torque wrench. : The torque spec is for dry threads. An oil pan plug is instantly lubricated threads once it's in service and trying to torque to to the dry spec will significantly over tighten it. It's an oil pan plug, it needs to just be tightened until it stops against the washer, (you did use washers, right?), then snugged a tiny bit more and it's fine. The actual torque value is moot. It's not a moving part, it's not holding a moving part. The value is intended to prevent damage, but it's the wrong value since engineers always use dry torque specs and every spec in the FSM is dry torque unless otherwise noted.

Few drain plugs get stripped because someone reefed on a regular wrench or ratchet so hard they did damage. But a long handled torque wrench gives a lot more leverage. Add to that the incorrect dry thread torque spec being used and yes, it's surprisingly easy to strip the aluminum threads. Note that a further problem is the torque wrench itself! Many average +/- 25% error depending on where you are in the range.

Torque wrenches are generally set at the middle of the range and err on either side of that to some degree, becoming less accurate the farther away from the middle of the range you are. This is even true of high quality tools, but can be extreme in budget quality tools. Because of this, try not to use a big torque wrench at the bottom of it's range for anything important. It's likely going to be inaccurate and the potential for a problem is greater.

Skip the torque wrench!!

If you just can't stop yourself, don't try to tighten it to the spec listed in the manual. That is a dry thread specification. Reduce that by 20% for wet torque and you'll be better off.

I have two main torque wrenches, one is a fairly standard 30-150 ft/lb version, the other is a 50-250 in/lb version. (12 in/lbs = 1 ft/lb) If you do the math, you will see that they don't quite over lap, the in/lb version only going up to slightly over 20 ft/lbs, but the two cover 95% of my needs. These happen to be Mac Tools with metal internals and have been calibrated. Note that you should always store your 'clicker' type torque wrenches backed off to zero or the minimum setting to avoid fatiguing the spring which will accelerate the error factor of the tool.

I agree with Eric on the TW, put it in the tool box. Make sure and use a "NEW CRUSH WASHER". This will solve a lot of these problems.

 

[caillou]

And I diagree ;D
You can have 2 values for torque: dry or lubricated. Oil pan plug is always given as lubricated. Do you really think Yamaha (and every manufacturer) would give a false value to frustrate customers? If you tighten it to Yamaha specs, you will not strip it, and it will not leak. BTW, the difference between lubricated or not is minimal and will in no way strip a bolt.

But your remark is valid for bolts that are supposed to be dry. Also, adding Loctite will affect the torque and lubricated value should then be taken into consideration.

 

[ace50]

I agree..................................but with who? ? ? ? ::017:: ::003:: ::021::

 

[Ron15S10]

Using a TW and the correct type of washer has always worked out w/o any issues for me. In this case the correct torque and the proper crush washer.

 

[EricV]

@caillou - The spec on page 3-25 of the FSM is 14 ft/lbs. It does not specify wet, so you are assuming that it is a wet torque spec. Either you have assumed that other specs in the manual are wet or dry, or you read the manual and understand that you can't assume anything. It doesn't call it out as wet, so that means it is a dry torque spec. You can disagree, but your opinion can't be proven with what's written in the FSM. And while I agree, that wet to dry is not a huge difference in this case, you're ignoring the real world issues here.

1. The OP has a stripped out oil pan. Someone applied far too much force to that drain plug.

2. Virtually no commonly found ft/lb torque wrench goes as low as 14 ft/lbs and most people that just do minor garage wrenching probably won't go buy a in/lb torque wrench or one that actually goes as low as 14 ft/lbs.

3. A torque wrench set below the lowest value is wildly inaccurate.

4. While not everyone has 'feel', it's not rocket science. Torque specs exist for two reasons; So you don't damage the parts/fasteners and so it doesn't fall off. (generalization, cut me some slack)

5. The Factory Service Manual was not written for consumers. It was written for trained mechanics. Who should know that unless a torque spec is specified as wet, it's a dry spec. Compensate as needed for conditions. 14 ft/lbs is how tight a new drain plug in a new pan that's never seen oil is supposed to be.

If you're applying any kind of force to the drain/fill plugs, you're applying too much. It just needs to be tight. It's not going to leak if it's just snugged up and it's not going to fall off. And regardless of the issue that Yamaha calls those aluminum washers "crush washers" the ones on the Super Ten are not crush washers. They are just solid aluminum or copper washers designed to give a little before the threads are damaged. You don't have to try and 'crush' them when you tighten the drain/fill plugs.

Note that a real crush washer is a one time use washer, and that Yamaha used to use these on all of their bikes. A hollow crush washer needs to be 'crushed' to be correctly installed and is a one time use item, which is why it says to use a new one in the FSM, but the engineer that wrote that assumed that real crush washers were going to be used, and Yamaha did not choose to do that for the Super Tenere.

Just as an aside, many FJR owners, (that bike does use real crush washers), re-use the crush washers multiple times anyway and seldom suffer any leaks. It's not a pressurized area.

This really wouldn't be a big deal, except that people do strip out drain plugs and this is not the first thread concerning it on a motorcycle or auto forum.

 

[caillou]

Eric, where I totally disagree with you is when you say the bold was stripped BECAUSE a torque wrench has been used.

Dry/wet value will not change a lot here, and using dry torque value on a lubrified bold will never strip it.

BTW, I have a torque wrench with low values for my drain plugs and never stripped a single one (and having been riding airhead flatwins for decades, it is 4 drain bolts/bike so I have little experience ).

 

[EricV]

Eric, where I totally disagree with you is when you say the bold was stripped BECAUSE a torque wrench has been used.

Dry/wet value will not change a lot here, and using dry torque value on a lubrified bold will never strip it.

BTW, I have a torque wrench with low values for my drain plugs and never stripped a single one (and having been riding airhead flatwins for decades, it is 4 drain bolts/bike so I have little experience ).

Point taken, I should have written "because a torque wrench was used incorrectly". I have too often seen this issue when someone took a cheap 30-150 ft/lb torque wrench and attempted to set it to 16 ft/lbs under the 30 marking, then with all the leverage of that long torque wrench, kept pulling, waiting to hear a 'click' and eventually stripped the threads. Sometimes damage occurs incrementally over several oil changes before it becomes apparent that a repair needs to be made.

Unrelated - at work, one of my co-workers that was used to torquing his fixtures to 600 ft/lbs on a large CNC horizontal mill, came over and borrowed my in/lb toque wrench because he had a 50 in/lb spec for the fixture he was working with. Came back about 10 minutes later and told me "this one is broken" and borrowed my back up. I followed him over and watched as he put the wrench on the fixture bolt, braced himself and was about to lean his entire body weight onto the 10" long handle. ??? At this point I stopped him and reached over, put two fingers on the torque wrench handle and applied pressure until it reached the torque spec of 50 in/lbs with no audible click, only the subtle divot feel that an in/lb torque wrench makes when it hits the set point. He was flabbergasted. He fully expected a loud "CLICK" from that tiny wrench just like his 600 ft/lb torque wrench made. He simply had no idea of the amount of force needed for 50 in/lbs and was using the same method for the 4' long torque wrench he used to do the 600 ft/lb fasteners. That first torque wrench? Oh, it was broken all right. He snapped the internal metal gears in the head. Good thing the company paid for a replacement one!

I like torque values, but for spark plugs and drain/fill plugs I don't use them. Especially with real crush washers when 'feel' is more important than a torque value. You can feel when the washer is fully crushed, that's when it's time to stop. On solid malleable washers of aluminum and copper, there is no need to "crush" the washer to get a good seal. It's simply there to hopefully save the threads from damage if excessive force is applied. Doesn't always work, eh?

@DarkKnight - I'm with OldRider - 1/2-20 is an easy fix if you can accept having two different size drain plugs. The heavy/sticky grease, (wheel bearing grease works well), will collect most of the chips. Pour a little oil in the top and let it drain thru, or mineral spirits, and it will likely take 99% of the rest. That last bit won't cause any issues. Try your best to get the tap square to the hole. A taper thread style tap will help. I suspect there is enough depth to cut the new threads fully with the taper style tap. A bottom style tap is designed to pull chips out, not push them thru, but will be more difficult to start and keep strait, especially with the pan still on the bike. Bottom taps are best used in machinery.

 

[ace50]

There is nothing wrong with 'cheap' torque wrenches (read HF), you just have to calibrate them before use and every-so often.


::017::

 

[rotortech71]

Did the OP even use a torque wrench? That seems to be an assumption at this point...

Agreed, torque wrenches, IF NOT USED CORRECTLY, will do more harm than good. With that kind of leverage, you lose most of your "feel", and the result is damaged threads.

On the other hand, accurate torque wrenches, used properly, to manufacturer's recommended specs shouldn't cause any issues.

Just pointing out that a torque wrench was probably not to blame in this case.

 

[OldRider]

On the Honda four wheelers with stripped drain plugs I would tap them out to 1/2 X 20 and screw in a automotive transmission drain plug. The transmission kit comes with a nut to put on the inside of the transmission pan, just toss it and screw the drain bolt into the MC drain hole. Then to change oil, just unscrew the small drain plug in the middle.The reason for doing this on the 4-wheelers was that the drain plug was very hard to get to and it was screwed directly into the engine cases. If they stripped it a 2nd. time the fix was going to be hard to do.

 

[shrekonwheels]

I do not use a Torque Wrench for things like an oil pan, however I also have never stripped a thread as I have a pretty good feel for snug, many do not and apparently the op himself needs the aid of a torque wrench.

Lets use Eric Vs estimate of 20 percent over tightening for wet threads, that puts us around 2lbs . I am sure despite how amazing I think I am there are times when I am 2lbs over, and other times that same amount under, I really do not know for sure. What I do know is a small amount of over is far better than how some people tighten things.

The golden rule should be Snug, after plug goes easily in, you lightly tighten it beyond that point, probably no more than quarter to half a turn at most.