Oil Level Error vs Real Oil Burning

Harry Dresden PI

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I am leaning towards buy the 2014 ES and have been doing a fare amount of research (Lurking) on this and related sites.

I have noted that due to dry sump design, Lower Pan design wall, Oil seal standoff placement error, there has been a lot of discussion on how to measure / determine the actual oil level.

I also have noted many discussion here, other sites, motorcycle magazine reviews that state these engines tend to burn oil.

Given the difficulty in determining the actual oil level without draining the bike (Filter and both drains) how can actual oil burning be gauged when the primary measurement has so much error?

Thanks in advance and hope to test ride the new 2014 ES at the Orlando AMEI motorcycle show in Oct...
 

EricV

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First, its difficult to refute sources you have not stated, (with links).

Yes, there is some confusion with new owners on how to correctly check the oil level. There is a specific process outlined in the owners manual that is not difficult to follow, but is different from what wet sump bike owners are used to.

If you check it consistently the same way, you will get a consistent reading.

As to the Super Teneres burning oil, that is not true. Especially to the degree of the KTM 1190s, for example. Does any S10 burn oil? I would think so. There are a lot of them out there. Most do not. At high sustained rpms it is not uncommon to see some oil usage, but this is believed to be over scavenging, not burning. We are talking about 9k steady running, or lots of high rev thru the gears and track day type riding.

Just my two cents.
 

rotortech71

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I have never had an issue with checking the level. I consistently get the same reading in the sight glass. Every few rides, I will shut down, put the bike on the center stand, and check the sight glass after the bike sits for ten minutes or so. Oil level will always be at the upper level of the window. In 4000 miles, I might use a small amount, but not enough to need to add oil.
 

coastie

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Harry Dresden PI said:
I am leaning towards buy the 2014 ES and have been doing a fare amount of research (Lurking) on this and related sites.

I have noted that due to dry sump design, Lower Pan design wall, Oil seal standoff placement error, there has been a lot of discussion on how to measure / determine the actual oil level.

I also have noted many discussion here, other sites, motorcycle magazine reviews that state these engines tend to burn oil.

Given the difficulty in determining the actual oil level without draining the bike (Filter and both drains) how can actual oil burning be gauged when the primary measurement has so much error?

Thanks in advance and hope to test ride the new 2014 ES at the Orlando AMEI motorcycle show in Oct...
You will drive yourself crazy trying to figure that out. Now I have a 12 that burns almost as much oil as gas when I'm riding hard. My oil does not budge with normal everyday riding, but at the end of a fully loaded day on the freeway, or hammering dirt roads all day there will be no oil left in the sight glass, none the next day, and none after some more riding, then the light usually goes on. I then just pull over and add some. I don't really consider it an issue at all. Ill usually stop and pick up a quart of oil at some point during an extend trip, and top if off a bit.
 

autoteach

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Are people really having oil consumption problems? And, besides changing the oil, checking it is easy as pie. Look in the sight glass, there it is. So, how to change... put 3.4 qts in when you change the filter and oil and just forget about it for a day of riding, then check it. Really though, consumption problems?
 

EricV

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autoteach said:
I rode over 1000 miles at 5k rpms. Oil consumption: none.
No, you shouldn't have any issues at 5k rpm. Move that up to 8-9k rpms, then you get some over scavenging and oil level goes down. Over 1500 miles, I did use enough for the oil light to come on, but just. I was on a closed road course and maintaining a steady 90 mph, with some sections over that.
 

autoteach

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I can believe that at those RPMS, but it shouldn't be that high of usage as some suggest, and closed road course riding like you were doing should see an oil change following the weekend.
 

EricV

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The only truly high oil usage that I've read about has been the fellow that folded an oil ring over when installing his piston. That would be a rather unique situation, IMHO.

Most of the comments about oil usage have been folks not quite getting the dry sump design, and either over filling because they believed it to be low, or not measuring correctly when doing an oil change.
 

Juan

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Some weeks ago I covered around 800 km (500 miles) on the highway at 140 - 160 kph (90 - 100 mph). My 2013 S10 has 13000 km on it (8000 miles). I started off with oil level covering 3/4 of the sight glass. I ended with no oil showing in the sight glass (but there was enough oil because no warning lights came on or flickered). Towards the end of the trip I noticed that gear changes, especially 1 and 2 gear, were a bit hard to engage, requiring quite a moderate kick on the lever - could be due to decreased oil quantity??? Other than that instant, I had never an issue with oil consumption and never added oil between oil changes (done every 5000 km or 3000 miles).

An interesting point is the method of checking oil. When I put the bike on the centre stand and leave for half an hour or so I get mixed readings every time. However, when I leave it for half an hour on the side stand and then put it on the centre stand I always get the same readings. I don't know why this happens. Surely I'm not the only one experiencing this.
 

EricV

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Politely put, stop checking your oil that way. Read the manual, follow the directions there, check your oil that way. Checking the oil on a hot bike after a ride is NOT the correct process and won't give you a consistent reading. Yes, I know it sounds silly. Dry sump motors can be difficult to check the oil on, because it really doesn't make as much of a difference what the "level" is. The oil pump is controlling how much oil goes thru the engine. When you stop and shut down the bike, only about a quart is in the engine, the rest is in the sump. This is why we have two oil drain plugs. Unlike a wet sump engine, how much oil is in the sump on a dry sump motor isn't very important.

It's my opinion that for this bike, far too much concern is being shown for what the sight glass reads. An old Ducati mechanic once told me, "the sight glass is there so you can check if the gold fish are still alive. Other than that, it's pretty worthless". I change the oil, add the correct amount and forget about it until the next oil change. If the light comes on, the low level light, I consider the conditions; is it cold, did I let the engine fully warm up before heading out, did the bike sit outside overnight? If yes to any of those, odds are high that the light will go off once the engine warms up some more. If the oil is getting close to a change time, sometimes it's just dirty and the gauge sticks. On very rare occasions, usually when I've been doing some fast, sustained hwy riding, it actually is low. It's not in any danger of starving the engine for oil, it's just circulating the existing oil a bit more often. Depending on how soon I plan on changing the oil, I might just ignore the light for the rest of the ride and change it when I get home. Or I might add a 1/4 quart.

::021::
 

offcamber

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Its very easy to check if you follow the procedure in the owners manual. The key is to check it O:)
 

rem

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I don't burn no oil. Not none, not never. And neither does my bike. R ::024:: ::015::
 

Bushyar15

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Ericv is spot on. Follow the manual for checking oil. While I don have anywhere close to the miles some have. I've not noticed any oil consumption and get consistent readings....
 

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Tomorrow I finish my second run to the Alps this year. Since the last service, 5500 miles ago, the oil level is fine. I'm not doing high rev. off road but lots of low gear back roads and passes and stretches of fast motorway/highway. I have now owned three water cooled bikes,an early model Goldwing, FJR and S10 and non have needed topping up between changes.
 

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Harry Dresden PI said:
I am leaning towards buy the 2014 ES and have been doing a fare amount of research (Lurking) on this and related sites.

I have noted that due to dry sump design, Lower Pan design wall, Oil seal standoff placement error, there has been a lot of discussion on how to measure / determine the actual oil level.

I also have noted many discussion here, other sites, motorcycle magazine reviews that state these engines tend to burn oil.

Given the difficulty in determining the actual oil level without draining the bike (Filter and both drains) how can actual oil burning be gauged when the primary measurement has so much error?

Thanks in advance and hope to test ride the new 2014 ES at the Orlando AMEI motorcycle show in Oct...
+1 to listening to EricV about following the manual in adding oil at a change and checking oil. If you do you won't ever have an issue with respect to oil quantity.
Oil burning?
I'm in the group who've had one of these bikes since they came out and I can't think of anybody (other than the error in engine rebuild) who has actually burned oil. And we do have at least one +100,000 miler in the group. The engine is based in the R1 with some FJR design thrown in, and neither of those has an oil burning history.

IF - and I do mean IF the low level oil light comes on and stays on, it doesn't mean there is low pressure. It generally means you didn't add quite enough at refill, so throw in 200-300 cc, the light goes out, and you are good till the next change.
 

Tonerrequeb

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''Some weeks ago I covered around 800 km (500 miles) on the highway at 140 - 160 kph (90 - 100 mph). My 2013 S10 has 13000 km on it (8000 miles). I started off with oil level covering 3/4 of the sight glass. I ended with no oil showing in the sight glass (but there was enough oil because no warning lights came on or flickered). Towards the end of the trip I noticed that gear changes, especially 1 and 2 gear, were a bit hard to engage, requiring quite a moderate kick on the lever - could be due to decreased oil quantity??? Other than that instant, I had never an issue with oil consumption and never added oil between oil changes (done every 5000 km or 3000 miles).''

I experienced exactly the same situation. Same change in oil level after 500 miles ride. I got a warning light on the next trip. First and second gear are also harder to change than before, and I check oil level as it is indicated in owner's manual. Personally, I am more concerned about the change in gear shifting than in oil level warning. Apparrently, not all people have an oil consumption problem. I guess it depends of many facts. This " problem" came when I got 20 000 miles on my bike. I would just know what's really happening with that and if I should worry about it.
 

EricV

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Tonerrequeb said:
''Some weeks ago I covered around 800 km (500 miles) on the highway at 140 - 160 kph (90 - 100 mph). My 2013 S10 has 13000 km on it (8000 miles). I started off with oil level covering 3/4 of the sight glass. I ended with no oil showing in the sight glass (but there was enough oil because no warning lights came on or flickered). Towards the end of the trip I noticed that gear changes, especially 1 and 2 gear, were a bit hard to engage, requiring quite a moderate kick on the lever - could be due to decreased oil quantity??? Other than that instant, I had never an issue with oil consumption and never added oil between oil changes (done every 5000 km or 3000 miles).''

I experienced exactly the same situation. Same change in oil level after 500 miles ride. I got a warning light on the next trip. First and second gear are also harder to change than before, and I check oil level as it is indicated in owner's manual. Personally, I am more concerned about the change in gear shifting than in oil level warning. Apparrently, not all people have an oil consumption problem. I guess it depends of many facts. This " problem" came when I got 20 000 miles on my bike. I would just know what's really happening with that and if I should worry about it.
While I have had oil loss from what I believe to be over scavenging at high rpms, I have not noticed any change in the shifting. I long ago did add a zerk fitting to my shifter and lube it every oil change. It's also well know that the shift lever gets difficult and needs the pivot point cleaned and lubed on occasion. Any rain or muck, or heavy wind blowing dust, etc during those trips? And how long since you last cleaned and lubed the shift pivot points?
 

Rasher

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Some over-thinking going on IMO.

I may check mine as per manual now and again after a run, but generally I occasionally have a peek before setting off on a ride, if there is oil showing off I go - simple ::008::

I do not ride very fast for long, but certainly will hold 90mph on trips abroad, my last Alps trip probably had 1000 or so miles of 80-90mph cruising, plus another 1500 of mixed back road riding, mainly low revs, but the odd thrash thrown in.

That plus my usual home mix of blasting the local lanes and odd trip away does not use a significant amount of oil, I have added a bit once or twice, but I suspect it would easily go between services without needing a top up, but as I like to potter around the garage tending to my bikes I will normally put a drop of oil in them when adjusting tyre pressures - which do seem to need regular top-ups, and unlike oil a lower lever of pressure will affect the bike.

So, Buy Bike, Check Tyres, Ride (a lot)
 
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