Need help with Vibrations post 4.5K RPMS

[Iroh]

Hi Guys,

Need some expert opinion please. I have a 2015 Gen 2 Super tenere without ES.
I bought my bike used at 17000km and i just did a major service at 22,000. I had the mechanic change the oil to 10w40 Eni brand. Put a new OEM filter. 4 New OEM plugs and HiFlo Air filter. I also had the mechanic check the throttle bodies and balanced them.

The problem is that the bike has developed a lot of vibrations on the handlebar at 4.5K RPM onwards. I cant really maintain rpms higher than that without suffering a lot of vibration.
It was super smooth before and I have reached speeds of 200kmph and more without vibration.
Things I have checked -

1) Had the TB sync redone.
2) Pulled in the clutch slightly at higher RPM's hoping it would be the clutch basket related issue. No difference. I have a Gen 2 and everything seems fine with the clutch
3) Not holding the bars tightly. Using the cruise control at higher speeds and not holding the bars at all. (bad Idea, I know). Both the mirrors shake and get blurry. So it doesn't make sense going higher than 140kmph with the vibration.
4) Pulled in the clutch to coast at higher speeds. The vibes go away while coasting so it definitely is something with the engine.
4) Changed the preload, compression, damping to different settings hoping to experiment and see a difference. No noticeable improvement.

Does anyone have an idea what could be the reason for the vibes?
I have had multiple trips to the mechanic for the last 3 months. I cant be sure what is causing the vibes. I am not sure if the vibes have progressively increased or directly related to the maintenance performed.
I do have a bent front wheel that tends to shake at speeds of 50KMPH but it all goes away after 100 KMPH. Its not the wheel.

I am thinking of buying anti vibration risers. Grip Puppies. A manometer to do the TB sync myself. But before I start a spending spree, maybe I can get it fixed at the mechanics.
Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Longdog Cymru]

My money is on the throttle body sync. What I think will not give you this vibration is the suspension settings. If it was smooth before, you need to look at what has been changed that could produce this effect And you have quoted a specific engine speed where this occurs. My 2017 is very smooth right through the Rev range both on load and off load and I am sure that most other SuperTen owners will tell you the same thing.

 

[~TABASCO~]

Check the oil level several times.... make sure its correct and not over filled. (Ive seen over filled cause what you describe before)

Check the TB's (again) Do you know if they turned up the "white hash marked throttle body" and then synced the other ?

You said they changed the plugs, make sure the four wires going to the four ignition coils are plugged into the CORRECT spots !

Did they perform a valve adjustment ? If so, could you please provide your starting numbers & and then what numbers they then changed them to ? (IMOP- ALL customers should leave the shop with this info, ALWAYS)

When you said you pulled the clutch in at speed and the vibration continued, did you let the RPM's drop too 1100 when you pulled in the clutch? Or did you maintain the RPM's at 4500 when you pulled in the clutch and you still felt the vibration.

 

[holligl]

A manometer to do the TB sync myself. But before I start a spending spree, maybe I can get it fixed at the mechanics.
Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

Pretty easy to make one, pretty cheap snd easy.

"DIY Manometer / Throttle Body Sync Tool | Yamaha FZ-09 Forum" https://www.fz09.org/threads/diy-manometer-throttle-body-sync-tool.61482/

I did not use restrictors, did use 2 cycle oil. I do leave capped pigtails in place.



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[holligl]

Pretty easy to make one, pretty cheap snd easy.

"DIY Manometer / Throttle Body Sync Tool | Yamaha FZ-09 Forum" https://www.fz09.org/threads/diy-manometer-throttle-body-sync-tool.61482/

I did not use restrictors, did use 2 cycle oil. I do leave capped pigtails in place.



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Obviously, for the ST, you only need the single loop. Sorry for any confusion.

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[Iroh]

Check the oil level several times.... make sure its correct and not over filled. (Ive seen over filled cause what you describe before)

Check the TB's (again) Do you know if they turned up the "white hash marked throttle body" and then synced the other ?

You said they changed the plugs, make sure the four wires going to the four ignition coils are plugged into the CORRECT spots !

Did they perform a valve adjustment ? If so, could you please provide your starting numbers & and then what numbers they then changed them to ? (IMOP- ALL customers should leave the shop with this info, ALWAYS)

When you said you pulled the clutch in at speed and the vibration continued, did you let the RPM's drop too 1100 when you pulled in the clutch? Or did you maintain the RPM's at 4500 when you pulled in the clutch and you still felt the vibration.

Yes I will check the Oil level. There was a mishap there. They filled only 3 Litres and when I checked the bike during delivery, after idling for 5 mins there was no oil on the sight glass. I asked them how much oil they used, they said 3 litres. So i made them add another 200 ML and then checked afterwards, there was oil in the sight glass in the correct mark. Is it possible to drain some oil without removing all the oil and adding fresh oil?

I couldn't check the tb sync. It wasn't done in front of me though I did tell them to turn the white screw closed and open it 3 quarters and then balance the other side. They said they did that. Instead of asking them to do it again, I think I will get a manometer and do it myself. It will be cheaper that way.

Plugs are fine. I did notice more power than before. If there was something wrong there I would find out while riding.

No haven't done a valve adjustment. I believe its scheduled for 40K and my bike is at 20K. I dont want to check them just yet.

I pulled the clutch at 4500 RPM. Not at 1100 RPM. Ill try that while coasting. But there is some extra noise when the bike is in Neutral and idling. When I pull the clutch the sound goes away. It comes back when I leave the clutch. I think that's normal. My other bike which is a motoguzzi V9 also does it. I got it brand new last month so I guess that's the nature of all bikes.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions. I will try this in the order you have mentioned.

 

[Iroh]

Pretty easy to make one, pretty cheap snd easy.

"DIY Manometer / Throttle Body Sync Tool | Yamaha FZ-09 Forum" https://www.fz09.org/threads/diy-manometer-throttle-body-sync-tool.61482/

I did not use restrictors, did use 2 cycle oil. I do leave capped pigtails in place.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Thanks for the link. The project looks interesting. Ill try it.

 

[WJBertrand]

Yeah when you release the clutch in neutral the input shaft on the transmission will start spinning. Because of the 270 degree crank and only two cylinders all the gear lash and clearances will get rattled about in a slightly exaggerated way compared to an even firing I-4 or other even firing engine. Every manual transmission vehicle (cars and bikes) I've owned with a manual transmission are slightly noisier to some degree with the clutch released (lever or pedal released) in neutral when idling.

With regard to the rough running, I would confirm the plugs and coil stick are good and as mentioned above are connected correctly. I had a brand new ND iridium plug loose it's center electrode only a few miles after installation in my wife's Rav4. Possible I damaged it somehow installing it but I don't think so. OBDII told me which cylinder was misfiring and installing another new plug solved the problem. I've also seen cracked ceramic insulators on brand new plugs.

 

[EricV]

Stop going to that mechanic/shop. Find another shop that will take the time to actually find out how much oil the bike takes. Buy an owner's manual and a factory shop manual so you can look things up yourself, if only to verify that things were done right after service work.

The Super Ten is a dry sump engine design. It has two oil drain plugs. One is the engine, the other is the sump. The system takes 3.4 L when a normal oil change and new filter are done. The sight glass is NOT an accurate device by which to check the oil. There is a specific process to follow in order to check the oil level in the sight glass and if it is not followed, it's hit or miss if the sight glass will show something close to the actual level.

The oil light is an oil level light, not an oil pressure light. You can safely run this engine with very low oil level, it just gets recirculated more often. The actual engine only holds about 1L.

It is possible to attach the wrong coil/wire to the wrong plug. If they were not paying attention and clearly they have no shop manual to look things up on, it wouldn't be all that surprising that they did this.

At this point, I would not trust anything done by the shop/mechanic you used. I would drain the oil completely and put 3.4L back in so you know how much oil is really in the bike.

The throttle body sync can be done incorrectly, but I'm not sure that would contribute to vibrations.

~Tabasco~ is perhaps the most knowledgable person here and a qualified mechanic that has done major work on these bikes over the course of the last decade or so.

Just my guess, the plug wires are incorrectly attached/ out of order. Although oil level too high could also be at fault as Tabasco mentioned. You don't need to take the coil off the plug to take the coil out. If I recall, there are only two that could easily be reversed. Perhaps there is a good picture on the forum that you can compare to yours?

 

[Jlq1969]

Does throttle bodies synchronization really affect an engine running at 4500 rpm?

 

[jbrown]

Does throttle bodies synchronization really affect an engine running at 4500 rpm?

I've seen so many mentions of the bike running much better after a sync, that I experimented and purposely set mine pretty far out of sync. I only noticed an issue at pretty low rpms or engine loads. Maybe if it was *really* out of whack, you could have higher rpm/load issues, but it is not like an old school carb sync. It's just an air bleed adjustment - the throttle bodies are on a common shaft, and you can't adjust the relationship of the butterflies like on a carburetted bike. The small air bleed *should* have little effect at significant throttle openings. Of course I've only had experience with my s10, not other's like Tabasco has. maybe there is something I'm missing.

 

[Jlq1969]

I agree. Maybe I should clarify or add to my question, if the synchronization affected the "S10" turning at 4500 rpm.
Is that in my humble knowledge, I had understood that the air regulator screws were only for idling

 

[MIKE R]

I'm no mechanic but just a thought

Loose engine mounting bolt(s)?

Could be worth checking

Mike

 

[Jlq1969]

Maybe “one” spark plug is not working and one of the cylinders has incomplete combustion.

 

[Longdog Cymru]

This is a little off topic, but may be of interest. As you all probably know, Ducati have a new V4 Multistrada out. As well as a 37,000 mile interval for valve clearances, it only requires an oil change every 2 years, but to check the oil level, the factory advice is to start the engine and leave it running until the radiator fan has cycled on twice, then leave it stand for 15 mins before checking the level in the sight glass. I guess the point that I am making is when do you actually check the sight glass level on the SuperTen? From cold? After the engine has run and left to stand for a short time? Personally, I would check after the engine has run and been left to stand for 10-15 mins.

 

[PhilPhilippines]

This is a little off topic, but may be of interest. As you all probably know, Ducati have a new V4 Multistrada out. As well as a 37,000 mile interval for valve clearances, it only requires an oil change every 2 years, but to check the oil level, the factory advice is to start the engine and leave it running until the radiator fan has cycled on twice, then leave it stand for 15 mins before checking the level in the sight glass. I guess the point that I am making is when do you actually check the sight glass level on the SuperTen? From cold? After the engine has run and left to stand for a short time? Personally, I would check after the engine has run and been left to stand for 10-15 mins.

Yep. Ridiculous. With the Husky TR650 you have to do the same. the oil will not show on the dipstick until you do the same as you have described, so there is a chance you could run the bike until the fan cycles with no oil, which would be interesting.

Changing oil is a palaver as well. Does anyone remember the time when you could check the oil hot/cold/sandals/boots/Democrat/Republican/omnivore/vegetarian? Heady days!

 

[Squibb]

TB sync won't be having any significant effect at 4500 rpm +.

The usual issues with vibes are missing bar end weights, the clutch basket on gen 1 bikes, failing coil sticks, dodgy spark plugs (there are fakes around) or the drive shaft UJ failing.

Otherwise, I wonder if this is a TPS/APS issue. Off idle, the throttle steppers are managed by the ECU, based on instructions from the rider, TCS & various sensors. There is a procedure, by entering diagnostic mode in the instrument cluster, to check the Throttle Position Sensor and the Accelerator Position Sensor, but we would need someone with a Gen 2 workshop manual to advise on the correct procedure. IIRC, there has been talk in the past of both these sensors getting dirty/sticky, when high throttle openings have only been called for on rare occasions, with some suggesting these sensors need to be exercised through their full range regularly.

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,

 

[EricV]

when do you actually check the sight glass level on the SuperTen?

The correct procedure is listed in the owner's manual. I no longer have a S10, but recall it as running the bike until it warms to a specific coolant temp, then shutting it down and waiting a short amount of time. The real trick is to understand that you need to be consistent to get consistent readings that can be compared.

And, that the site glass is useless. Dry sump engine! Measure what you put in and be done with it. If you get a low level oil light, add a little more, but don't stress about what the site glass is doing up or down on a daily basis.

Really excessive oil could cause issues as Tabasco has personally seen, but adding 4 quarts instead of 3.6 doesn't cause issues, as lots of people here are doing that. If I got a really good drain, tipping the bike up on the side stand, etc, I usually needed a bit more than 3.6 quarts. If I just did a quick and dirty drain/filter/fill, 3.6 quarts did the job.

 

[Cycledude]

Going through all the steps in the owners manual for checking oil works fine but in my opinion it’s mostly a waste of time. I use the sight glass window and check it when the engine is cold. So far my Tenere’s have never used and oil that I’ve been able to notice.

My Goldwing has very similar oil checking instructions in the owners manual but I just check it cold and if it’s at a decent level that’s good enough for me, the Goldwing now has 562,000 miles and still runs like new.

 

[jbrown]

Of course, the confusing thing about the Yamaha instructions are that they tell you to run the engine until the oil temperature reaches 140F, and we don't have an oil temp indicator. In vehicles where I have had an oil temperature gauge, the oil temp is generally not the same as the coolant temp. I suspect the temperature is not very important, and they just want you to check while warm.