My S10 does not like to run below 2500 rpm in any gear.

Niterunnr

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#22
Glad I found this thread. Wasn’t certain which words to search for.
I’ve also noticed my 2018 with only 2600 miles is very jerky below 2k. I disagree with the idea of lugging the engine though. ANY motor under low loads can be driven at idle. One thing I learned from riding Hondas with DCT is that most of us shift our bikes waay to high in the rev range when riding casually. My Africa Twin shifted at 2k or below and was in 6th by 30 mph for sure. Did some riders complain, you bet. Honda did this to conserve fuel and they’ve been making these trannys for quite a while now. Switching to S mode would rev higher.
The most recent bike I would “idle ride” is my Vstrom 650 without any jerking from the motor or chain drive. Could the difference be engine size and torque?
I refuse to ride around with the revs up on any bike while leisurely cruising, so I hope this issue is correctable.

I tried 1-3rd and all of them made a horrible banging sound from the shaft drive while riding at or near idle.
Not good.
 
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HeliMark

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#23
Glad I found this thread. Wasn’t certain which words to search for.
I’ve also noticed my 2018 with only 2600 miles is very jerky below 2k. I disagree with the idea of lugging the engine though. ANY motor under low loads can be driven at idle. One thing I learned from riding Hondas with DCT is that most of us shift our bikes waay to high in the rev range when riding casually. My Africa Twin shifted at 2k or below and was in 6th by 30 mph for sure. Did some riders complain, you bet. Honda did this to conserve fuel and they’ve been making these trannys for quite a while now. Switching to S mode would rev higher.
The most recent bike I would “idle ride” is my Vstrom 650 without any jerking from the motor or chain drive. Could the difference be engine size and torque?
I refuse to ride around with the revs up on any bike while leisurely cruising, so I hope this issue is correctable.

I tried 1-3rd and all of them made a horrible banging sound from the shaft drive while riding st idle.
Not good.
Your engine will not be "broken in" until about 7,500 miles, so expect a tight engine, and all that comes with it.

I find at the lower speeds, and low rpm, it is easy for the bikes momentum to get a little faster then the throttle due to acceleration/grade of road, heavy beast, and will cause a slight slack in the drive shaft until the rpm catches up, wash and repeat. Very little difference between the two will be felt as there is no "give" like a chain or belt. That is not the same as lugging the engine. The only time I am over about 4K rpm (roughly 75 mph) is when I want to stretch her legs, then all bets are off.

I also find that on a rough road, I will put it into "T", as it is hard not to be a little jerky with your wrist and the bike reacting quickly in the "S" mode.
 
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EricV

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#26
The Super Ten can be ridden at idle just fine. But any engine with barely any throttle opening is not going to be responsive. The jerkiness can show up at very low throttle openings. If I'm in a traffic jam and idling at 7-8 mph, then speed up to 14 mph or so and have to back off, speed up, repeat I may encounter the jerkiness. Off pavement in rough terrain I haven't noticed it because I'm at a higher rpm.

I have said it before, and will say it again, 1st gear is for getting to 2nd gear. ;)

If I'm going 20-25 mph, off pavement or on, I'm usually in 2nd gear.

There are things you can do like adjusting the slack in the throttle cable and in some cases balancing the throttle bodies, but I'm of the opinion that some riders need to stop focusing on the jerkiness and simply don't hang out in that 'zone'. I really don't care what your other bikes did. And Honda had gas mileage in mind, not rider performance. It's still lugging the engine if you put any load on it below 2k rpms. Shift the heck down.
 

Checkswrecks

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#27
Ride it however the heck is comfortable for you. I roll along at idle (8 mph) in traffic frequently but also am slipping the clutch below 10 or so mph.
 

Niterunnr

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#28
I sure hope this condition does improve with use as in it’s a dealbreaker in it’s current form. I was warned about jumpy throttle response, but the jerky idle and shaft noise surprised me. Not all of us ride the bike like a hooligan 100% of the time. Sometimes I want to go slow to enjoy the scenery and hear what’s going on around me. I don’t need speed or exhaust noise. This was possible on my DL and of course I’m going to compare it to other bikes. Would be an expensive mistake so that’s why I asked you all for help. As mentioned, the bike exhibited jerky idle in gears 1-3 that I tried.
I don’t consider this bike fast or powerful for it’s class so I was hoping for smooth at least.

Here’s a video of a mountain climb at a mere 2k rpm.
 

EricV

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#29
So you're comparing jerky idle speed on the S10 with 2k rpms on the Strom? Riding with a little more rpm is far from being a hooligan and blasting along.

The Super Ten is known for tractoring along up trails just fine. I continue to not see what the issue is here. The main complaint seems to be operator error and the inability to simply adjust to throttle by wire. If the Super Ten is not for you, pick what you like and ride happy.

BTW, what class did you think this bike falls into? There are no other bikes in it's class. Which would be shaft drive ADV bikes over 1 liter and under $20k. ;)
 

magic

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#30
I being riding my S10 and since day one (about 2 months) I noticed that she does not like to run in any gear when rpm are lower than 2500, the drive line starts jerking.
I noticed that when above 2500 is just great.
Any comment?
Regards
This is one of the most discussed topics on this forum. There are many threads on changes or adjustments that help with the off idle response. First remove the excessive play from the throttle cables, back out the idle screws 3/4 of a turn and balance the throttle bodies, increase the CO settings on both cylinders (they are set at zero from the factory. I have mine set at 50). The procedure is outlined somewhere on this forum. You have a Gen 1, so it can be adjusted with the buttons on the dash. Try riding in "T" mode. You could try a Throttle Tamer, it's a new throttle tube with a different profile cam. Look at some of the threads that pertain to this topic. There is a thread here somewhere with a step by step procedure with pictures on the CO settings. Good luck.
 

Checkswrecks

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#31
I sure hope this condition does improve with use as in it’s a dealbreaker in it’s current form. I was warned about jumpy throttle response, but the jerky idle and shaft noise surprised me. Not all of us ride the bike like a hooligan 100% of the time. Sometimes I want to go slow to enjoy the scenery and hear what’s going on around me. I don’t need speed or exhaust noise. This was possible on my DL and of course I’m going to compare it to other bikes. Would be an expensive mistake so that’s why I asked you all for help. As mentioned, the bike exhibited jerky idle in gears 1-3 that I tried.
I don’t consider this bike fast or powerful for it’s class so I was hoping for smooth at least.

Here’s a video of a mountain climb at a mere 2k rpm.
Impatient much? From your other posts, you seem to be changing multiple variables (at least 3) without a progressive method of getting one right and then going for the next.

1. The bike is new. It WILL take up to about 5,000 miles to break in and get smooth. Mine and some others would stall near idle, especially if it is hot out, then totally lose that trait as they broke in.

2. The bike is shipped lean and some bikes ship with better idle response than others. While we can't alter the CO as we could on the Gen1 bikes, there are multiple threads about syncing the carbs. This is important in the off-idle regime you are writing of having issues with.

3. You removed the catalytic converter, further leaning the mixture. If it didn't have an issue before, it likely would when combining this with the stock throttle body settings in the previous point. This wasn't Yamaha or the bike, this was you.

4. You wrote of getting a header. Not sure if you did but that again will lean it out even more. Without the flash or cat, you might need a Power Commander to get the mixture right.

5. You wrote of getting it re-flashed and I honestly didn't read enough of your posts to see if you followed through. The flash on this bike for the most part affects the relation of the throttle position to the intake butterflies, not the mixture. Probably no affect on the idle properties, but especially on a bike not yet broken in it can make a big difference in low speed throttle response.

6. Not sure of what else may be unique to you, your environment, or that particular bike.

I'm not flaming you, I'm just trying to relate the need to go back with a plan to work through at least what is here.

Good luck and appreciate keeping us up to date with your progress.
 

Niterunnr

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#33
Impatient much? From your other posts, you seem to be changing multiple variables (at least 3) without a progressive method of getting one right and then going for the next.

1. The bike is new. It WILL take up to about 5,000 miles to break in and get smooth. Mine and some others would stall near idle, especially if it is hot out, then totally lose that trait as they broke in.

2. The bike is shipped lean and some bikes ship with better idle response than others. While we can't alter the CO as we could on the Gen1 bikes, there are multiple threads about syncing the carbs. This is important in the off-idle regime you are writing of having issues with.

3. You removed the catalytic converter, further leaning the mixture. If it didn't have an issue before, it likely would when combining this with the stock throttle body settings in the previous point. This wasn't Yamaha or the bike, this was you.

4. You wrote of getting a header. Not sure if you did but that again will lean it out even more. Without the flash or cat, you might need a Power Commander to get the mixture right.

5. You wrote of getting it re-flashed and I honestly didn't read enough of your posts to see if you followed through. The flash on this bike for the most part affects the relation of the throttle position to the intake butterflies, not the mixture. Probably no affect on the idle properties, but especially on a bike not yet broken in it can make a big difference in low speed throttle response.

6. Not sure of what else may be unique to you, your environment, or that particular bike.

I'm not flaming you, I'm just trying to relate the need to go back with a plan to work through at least what is here.

Good luck and appreciate keeping us up to date with your progress.
Checkswrecks, thanks for taking so much time with your reply.
Did you actually go to my profile and read past posts? That’s thorough.

1. Good news I guess. Though I didn’t think expecting a properly performing bike out of the box was too much.

2. Good to know, I will investigate, (see 1)

3. I didn’t remove the cat, (maybe someone else’s post?) I originally thought the owner had removed the cat and may have posted a related question. Previous owner installed arrow headers with stock exhaust. Maybe I’ll swap back to OEM as I value smoothness overall.

4. (see 3)

5. I have done nothing as of yet.

6. Happy to elaborate in exchange for insight.

Thanks again for taking the time to share helpful suggestions.
 

EricV

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#34
Wait... if the PO installed Arrow headers, doesn't that delete the CAT? Unless I haven't been paying attention, (it's possible), the CAT is part of the oem header, so thus the reason people buy the Arrow header to begin with, to get rid of the CAT.

So you have no CAT and have never ridden the bike with one. You should realize that your expectation of a "properly performing bike out of the box" is one you are unable to verify, since you've never ridden this bike as it came from the factory.

Essentially you started out with an un-broken in lean bike that was made even leaner by installing the Arrow header and not compensating for that with a Flash or PC. As to if anything else has actually been done, no one knows, including you, since you haven't done anything as of yet yourself.

Yeah, I could see where you might have some issues.

So do one change at a time and see how that impacts your riding. Then move on to another. I'd start by seeing where the Throttle bodies are with the bleed screws. Typically the painted screw is all the way in. See where it's at. If it's all the way in, back it out 1/4 turn, then sync the other TB to that and see how it rides. You may find it's better with less than 1/4 on the base line TB, or more. You won't know until you actually try it different ways.
 

Niterunnr

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#35
Yup, CAT is part of OEM header.
I wasn’t the one who suggested new owners need six thousand miles before the full capabilities of the S10 are revealed. I have done my best to explain an issue and the current configuration in hopes of finding a solution.
This is my first throttle by wire, but that doesn’t make thirty two years of riding everything from two stroke dirt bikes to super sport worthless. This is why I come here for advice.
I spoke at length with the PO and am confident that headers where his only engine mod. He’s an older guy (than me) who hates emission devices.
So, should I swap the OE headers back or mess with throttle bodies?
BTW, tightening the throttle cable made a huuge difference; ridiculous if the shop sold it that way.


C811B3EF-8470-490D-A141-173FD34789D4.jpeg
 

magic

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#36
Yup, CAT is part of OEM header.
I wasn’t the one who suggested new owners need six thousand miles before the full capabilities of the S10 are revealed. I have done my best to explain an issue and the current configuration in hopes of finding a solution.
This is my first throttle by wire, but that doesn’t make thirty two years of riding everything from two stroke dirt bikes to super sport worthless. This is why I come here for advice.
I spoke at length with the PO and am confident that headers where his only engine mod. He’s an older guy (than me) who hates emission devices.
So, should I swap the OE headers back or mess with throttle bodies?
BTW, tightening the throttle cable made a huuge difference; ridiculous if the shop sold it that way.


View attachment 58889
Here's what I would try. Leave the Arrow headers on with the stock muffler. Synchronize the throttle bodies and turn the idle screws out at the same time, aprox. 3/4 turn. Ride it and see how it performs. You have a 2018, so CO settings have to be done by a dealer. Have the dealer set your CO setting in the 25-50 range. I have my 2013 set at 50. I really didn't notice any improvement until I got to 40. Sounds like you have taken care of the throttle cable slack. Good luck.
 

EricV

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#37
Break in varies from bike to bike, brand to brand. The old Airhead BMWs were not considered broken in for 50k miles.

I'm on my second S10. It really does smooth out after about 5k miles. My '15 was purchased used with 2300 miles on it. I added 1k the first day I rode it home from the dealer several states away. I could tell it wasn't fully broken in yet. It's got 38k now and is smoother than it was when I bought it.

I guess you have to decide if you want to tune the bike for the Arrow headers or not. And accept that even if you tune it to your satisfaction, you may need to do it again down the road when you have more miles on it. Ideally, a flash to compensate for the reduced back pressure of not having the CAT is a Good Thing™. It would be even more pronounced an issue if you also had an aftermarket exhaust.

Yamaha specs way more slack in the throttle cable than I personally prefer. I have had dealers "fix" it for me when the bike was in for some warranty work. I immediately noticed the difference and had to change it back before it drove me nuts. With as fine as the throttle is, having a bunch of slack just makes it harder to be smooth.

You could opt to put the OE header with cat back on and run that until you have 5-6k on the bike, then change back to the Arrow. The cat results in more felt heat up front and low. The bike is designed to have it and tuned for it being there. How much of that is part of what is bothering you, I simply don't know. I'm not you. If you swap the header, you likely will need some new exhaust gaskets, so be aware of that.
 
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#38
No offense guys but I think some smoother clutch control is in order. I'm pretty damn good at that part of it but I totally suck at slow speed!! It's not the bikes fault at all. This is one of the smoothest motors from idle to redline. There is zero jerkiness at any RPM.
 

2daMax

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#39
Mine a 2012 S10, no issues riding below 2500 RPM. At 6th gear, lowest speed I can ride without the engine or shaft complaining is 70 kph. Usually the shaft will complain first before the engine.

TB balanced with 1/2 Turn out on Reference air screws, Platinum plugs from NGK-G Power, CO settings at 7 each Cylinders. Always on T mode.

Things to check for jerky response are TB balance, Coil corrosion, sticky throttle linkages. Also clean up the air screws passages with TB Cleaner during the balancing process.

My bike has the Akra exhaust, and BMC air filter. Other than that are all stock.
 

Niterunnr

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#40
No offense guys but I think some smoother clutch control is in order. I'm pretty damn good at that part of it but I totally suck at slow speed!! It's not the bikes fault at all. This is one of the smoothest motors from idle to redline. There is zero jerkiness at any RPM.
For clarification the issue we’re discussing is after clutch engagement when the bike is idling down the road.

I really appreciate the sincerely helpful suggestions here guys. There seems to be so many opinions on this motor my head is spinning. I’ve heard “delete the cat”, “get headers”, “you need a flash”, “the bike’s not broken in”, “balance the throttle bodies”, “adjust the CO”. Normally I just ride the bike as is!
I did add a complete Yosh system on my Hayabusa back in the day, but that was mostly because the OE cans were huge, ugly, silent, heavy and two of them. I actually like the look of the S10 exhaust. The bike also sounds great with the Arrow, but honestly I got used to how quiet my Strom was so I could easily leave the Arrow.
Gaskets are easy to cut, so I might try out the OE header with cat and see how she performs.
I’m still interested in messing with CO and TB, but it sucks that I’ll have to pay each time I want to adjust the former.

Better yet, I need to meet up with some locals to see how their tuned bikes run. I did just miss a demo day at my local dealer just before I got my used bike.
 
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