Lithium Battery

BadNews

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Good article. I had no idea that there was such a thing as a lithium iron battery. I thought they were all lithium ion.
 

hobdayd

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Hi,

Sorry, I could not let this article pass without comment...I work in the battery world so I recognise a marketing statement when I see one.

It is true that lithium batteries have a higher energy density. They also cost more...

However...it is disingenuous to state "Lead-acid batteries can last 500-1000 cycles in optimal conditions, but in real world use, 100-300 cycles is a lot more typical.

Lead acid battery cycle life is greatly impacted by depth of discharge. Yes, at 100% DOD the cycle life is 150 to 600+ cycles manufacturer dependent but we do not cycle our batteries to 100% DOD on our bike. Typically they operate in the 100% to 70% area and cycle life is dramatically increased at this shallower DOD. 1,000's of cycles are typical. How many times do you cycle your car battery a day over its 4 year battery life?

Lead acid batteries like to be recharged periodically because they do self discharge..but not to the degree stated in this article..typically 3% to 5% month. Lithium is similar / worse.

My VFR1200 battery is the original and is now 4 years old (16,000 kiles) with no signs of reduced capacity.

Lead acid batteries are low cost, FULLY RECYCLEABLE (99%+ in developed countries) (lithium is not economically recycleable and hence ends up in landfill), provide high cranking amps especially in colder temperatures, are cheap comparatively, ubiquitous, need no new charging system, will last 3 to 4 years on your bike and finally are SAFE!

There is a reason that lithium batteries are classified as hazardous. If damaged through punctures vibration, incorrect charging etc. they can be a disaster waiting to happen. Mobile phones, laptops come to mind.

Worse..lithium batteries are now being designed to look the same as the lead acid battery and mistakenly end up in lead smelters with disastrous effects.

Why take the risk? There are limited benefits in our bike application...

How many cars / motorbikes have lithium cranking batteries today? Why does the all electric Tesla have a lead acid battery?

Warranty...you can get a good brand (OEM) lead acid battery with a 2 to 3 year warranty. Try obtaining warranty from one of these lithium battery sellers in 3 years time. Read the warranty small print!

Lithium batteries have a perfect operating environment...mobile electronics like cell phones / tablets.

Lead acid batteries also have a sweet spot...high reluability, safe delivery of cold cranking amps at the lowest energy storage cost.





.
 

SilverBullet

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Also the statement made that Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries cannot catch on fire is 100% false. I've personally seen a Shorai flaming full on and dang near burnt a KTM 950 to ashes. Good thing we were in the desert and were able to smother the fire with sand to extinguish. Still caused major damage and bike needed to be extracted out. Another time witnessed a Shorai smoking and fried it's circuit board. Both times were avoidable as due to complete discharge and then repeat charging/discharging. Lithium batteries are sensitive to this and when they overheat due to this kind of abuse watch out!

_
 

WJBertrand

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hobdayd said:
How many cars / motorbikes have lithium cranking batteries today? Why does the all electric Tesla have a lead acid battery?
Actually the Teslas do have Li-ion batteries according to their own website. There may be an additional lead-acid one for some purpose but the primary battery power is Li-ion. I think this is true of many current hybrid, plug-in hybrid and electric cars.

https://www.tesla.com/support/model-s-specifications
 

hobdayd

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Yes...I did not explain well enough...despite being a pure EV powered mainly by lithium batteries a lead acid battery is still required today.

Do not get me wrong, I am not against either chemistry but they both have their place. For instance, lead acid is theoretically capable of 167Wh/kg energy densith but today only achieves average 30ish Wh/kg. Massive room for advancement. This is happening as we type. Cycle life is also capable of significant uplift. Again, we are seeing improvements.

Lithium chemistry also has undeniable further potential. Good news for everyone.

However, today, there are clear application boundaries based on performance and cost.

There is significant over capacity in lithium and dumping of lithium batteries from Asian countries trying to drive sales into traditional lead acid markets.

A real concern should be recycleabilty and safety of lithium batteries today.
 

Dogdaze

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hobdayd said:
There is significant over capacity in lithium and dumping of lithium batteries from Asian countries trying to drive sales into traditional lead acid markets.

A real concern should be recycleabilty and safety of lithium batteries today.
Bring back the kick starter............... aahh the good old days ::013::
 

Chuck B

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hobdayd said:
Hi,

Sorry, I could not let this article pass without comment...I work in the battery world so I recognise a marketing statement when I see one.

It is true that lithium batteries have a higher energy density. They also cost more...

However...it is disingenuous to state "Lead-acid batteries can last 500-1000 cycles in optimal conditions, but in real world use, 100-300 cycles is a lot more typical.

Lead acid battery cycle life is greatly impacted by depth of discharge. Yes, at 100% DOD the cycle life is 150 to 600+ cycles manufacturer dependent but we do not cycle our batteries to 100% DOD on our bike. Typically they operate in the 100% to 70% area and cycle life is dramatically increased at this shallower DOD. 1,000's of cycles are typical. How many times do you cycle your car battery a day over its 4 year battery life?

Lead acid batteries like to be recharged periodically because they do self discharge..but not to the degree stated in this article..typically 3% to 5% month. Lithium is similar / worse.

My VFR1200 battery is the original and is now 4 years old (16,000 kiles) with no signs of reduced capacity.

Lead acid batteries are low cost, FULLY RECYCLEABLE (99%+ in developed countries) (lithium is not economically recycleable and hence ends up in landfill), provide high cranking amps especially in colder temperatures, are cheap comparatively, ubiquitous, need no new charging system, will last 3 to 4 years on your bike and finally are SAFE!

There is a reason that lithium batteries are classified as hazardous. If damaged through punctures vibration, incorrect charging etc. they can be a disaster waiting to happen. Mobile phones, laptops come to mind.

Worse..lithium batteries are now being designed to look the same as the lead acid battery and mistakenly end up in lead smelters with disastrous effects.

Why take the risk? There are limited benefits in our bike application...

How many cars / motorbikes have lithium cranking batteries today? Why does the all electric Tesla have a lead acid battery?

Warranty...you can get a good brand (OEM) lead acid battery with a 2 to 3 year warranty. Try obtaining warranty from one of these lithium battery sellers in 3 years time. Read the warranty small print!

Lithium batteries have a perfect operating environment...mobile electronics like cell phones / tablets.

Lead acid batteries also have a sweet spot...high reluability, safe delivery of cold cranking amps at the lowest energy storage cost.





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I use to be in the battery business and manufactured LiFePo's and other chemistry's. I'm a good 3yrs out of the business (a lifetime) but agree in that LiFePo have their advantages and disadvantages. For my own personal use I do have LiFePo's in most of my power sports vehicles though a couple I have AGM's. The Tenere being one of them. On other sites I've gotten quite involved in discussing the adv/disadv and the care and feeding but often it can become futile.

Big difference(s) in Li-ion and LiFePo as well as the half doz other Li based batteries.
LiFePo's, if matched cells, can well exceed (2-3X) even the best wet or AGM battery in cycles.
Biggests misunderstanding is output vs capacity. Wet and AGM types have far greater capacity.
Our LiFePo's had a very safe record, however, we also included software that would disable the battery if voltages dropped too low. LiFePo's can not be deeply discharged.
Lead acid can only dream 500+ cycles in the real world.
We supplied batteries to first responders and our Li based batteries never could match basic Ni-Cad performance in adverse weather (cold). LiFePo's can require a little warm up time to perform optimally in cold weather...
 
R

RonH

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Dogdaze said:
Bring back the kick starter............... aahh the good old days ::013::
I agree. My 1974 Kawasaki H2 needs no battery to run. In the mean time I'm happy with lead acid. The AGM is like a dream come true after adding water to those old pieces of crap. I see no need to change to Chinese Lithium technology.
 

hobdayd

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ChuckB...I recognise that you have a lot of experience in this area.

I am currently involved in designing, developing and bringing to manufacture Advanced Lead Acid batteries that offer far greater performance than today's lead acid batteries so I will keep off any subject matter I do not have a lot of experience in.

I do however feel I have to explain to people outside the industry the complex nature of this topic...mainly because lead acid is under attack from lithium in certain traditional markets and many claims are made that are not 100% accurate and therefore my industry is constantly having to defend what is essentially a very robust product if manufactured and maintained well.

So, your comment "Lead acid can only dream 500+ cycles in the real world" I view as an incomplete statement...to put numbers on cycle life of any battery regardless of chemistry requires lots of back to back testing on test equipment against a given test schedule...could you share your data set with us so I can understand under what test profile lead acid is expected to achieve 400 - 500+ cycles in real world operation on a motorbike or car.

For example - real world - my Mitsubishi Shogun car has just had its first replacement battery after 5 years and 2 months. The car is used on average 2 - 3 times a day for short journeys (3-5 miles) during the week days with several start stop applications on each run and also running ancillary electrical systems. On weekends / holidays we travel further afield with longer distances between start stop. So I conservatively estimate our total number of cranking cycles on that battery were 350 days x 6 start stop episodes x 5.2 years approx. = 10,920 cycles over the life of that battery! That's a little more than 500 cycles! And it only died in the winter due to the short trips and incomplete charge I suspect.

My Honda VFR1200 is now 4 years old 16,000 miles same original battery and based on its duty cycle I estimate it has done 1,400 start stop duty cycles - and it is still going strong!

A vehicle cranking application duty cycle is not the same as a very aggressive 100% depth of discharge duty cycle. On a 100% DOD 2 hour rate test I know from all our back to back lab testing of many manufacturers products batteries will last anywhere between 75 cycles and 1,000+. Again, this is very different from "Lead acid can only dream 500+ cycles in the real world". This type of duty cycle is NEVER seen by vehicle - it is more typical of a power supply back up in a country where power interruption is frequent and prolonged like India.

In a previous life I spent the first 25 years developing chassis parts for Global car and truck companies. Typically, the projects would last 5 to 6 years from concept of vehicle to vehicle on sale. Enormous amounts of testing are carried out on every part that ends up in a vehicle - why?
1) Cost - manufacturers do not like paying for warranty
2) Safety - manufacturers don't like paying for recalls or class actions
3) Brand management - manufacturers want you to buy another vehicle from them and recommend them to your friends / family - they want you the first owner not to have any negative views towards their vehicles reliability

For all these reasons and many more the OEM's (vehicle producers) test, validate, retest, place exacting requirements on their suppliers and monitor warranty in a closed feedback improvement loop.

We as consumers then go and buy the cheapest, crappiest, manufacturer unknown aftermarket replacement when our battery fails because its convenient or we don't know which is good - but mostly because we resent OEM aftermarket pricing. Even worse, we put our families in the car and drive down a busy road at 80MPH with non OEM brake pads and discs (which the OEM's took many years and $100M's to develop) brought from someone that profits from lowest cost highest margin. Don't get me started!!!

There are many factors which influence the life of a lead acid battery - I will list some...
- Duty cycle - depth of discharge and recharge
- High ambient temperature - India , US Southern States / US winter Northern states
- Vibration - 3rd. World / Developed / On highway / off highway
- Time on stand - summer more use - winter no use?
- Time on float - usage profile and how well a battery is maintained - even "maintenance free" batteries have a stand / float voltage requirement so they are not really maintenance free
- Charger profile - good / bad / cheap / aftermarket
- Hoteling loads - alarm / immobiliser / radio / clock
- Battery construction - AGM / Flooded - made by who? Aftermarket supplier or OEM supplier quality?

(Lithium will have its own list similar to the above).

If you imagine just the duty cycle variation above in the 200,000,000 vehicles in the USA today imagine the difficulty the OEM's and their suppliers have designing for all the possible outcomes. The humble 100 year old lead acid battery does well.

Finally, back on topic...you pay your money you take your chances! When the OEM's start to specify Lithium batteries for starting their vehicles I will be in line to buy them because they will be safe, reliable and cost effective. Until then I will avoid aftermarket function (OR SAFETY) critical items in favor or items specifically designed / developed for the application by the OEM.

Don
 

Chuck B

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Don,
Thanks for replying. You are correct in that laying blanket statements is misleading....too many parameters/conditions. As I stated I've been out of the industry long enough to classify my knowledge as (way) out of date. Lots of money being poured into battery technology regardless of chemistry back then and even more so now. Heck, I had enough trouble keeping up with new software for our chargers. I also should state that my battery experience comes from the 2way radio industry....quite a bit different than powersports/starter battery.

A fun topic would be when we moved our manuf to China... ::010:: ::013::
 

WJBertrand

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hobdayd said:
Finally, back on topic...you pay your money you take your chances! When the OEM's start to specify Lithium batteries for starting their vehicles I will be in line to buy them because they will be safe, reliable and cost effective. Until then I will avoid aftermarket function (OR SAFETY) critical items in favor or items specifically designed / developed for the application by the OEM.

Don
This has been my philosophy for years. I didn't adopt using synthetic oils or precious metal spark plugs until I saw OEM manufactures use them.

Regarding OEM batteries, I think manufacturers fit good quality parts from the factory with respect to motorcycles. My experience has been different with cars however. With Japanese-built cars, I've had the OEM batteries reach 100K miles and 9-10 years but with Domestic US brand cars, and US-built Japanese brand cars, the OEM batteries tend to call it quits in 1-3 years. My 2013 Mustang is approaching 3 years old next month and I'm holding my breath a bit.
 

hobdayd

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Chuck,

Thank you for not jumping on me...I try to spread any "knowledge" i have gained impartially.

WJ,

Vehicles are built to a budget but battery life depends on both quality of manufacture and cycle life / duty cycle and maintainance.

SLI lead acid batteries don't mind throwing out lots of amps quickly but they do like to be recharged quickly and considerately. Today's traditional lead acid batteries hate partial state of charge applications or being left at a high float voltage if not used regularly.

I hope you get 5 years from this one.

Don
 

Checkswrecks

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I spent over 2 years investigating some high profile Li-Ion failures, still look at smaller ones and reports of others, am tied in with the testing labs, have been going to conferences all over the world, etc. Glad to have hobdayd point out the bunch of marketing tripe in that article and add his expertise. Not only that, the photo used was pirated from one of our members!


I'll just post a copy of what I wrote in another thread on the subject:

Checkswrecks said:
Now you guys got me to pull up my old post. Helios - In addition to what is below, only one motorcycle lithium battery has a built-in management system and without it to match individual cells the Li battery will need to be replaced faster than the less expensive AGM. So it costs more now and more later. btw - external plug-in chargers can not address cell balancing within the battery case, i don't care what their marketing says, they simply charge the cells in series.
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Leaving a Li battery on most maintenance/trickle type chargers will also kill them much faster than a AGM.
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The Li batteries get away with selling you less Ah capacity and it works great in warm weather because the discharge rate is so flat, but in the 30s (F) you will have an under-size battery for starting. The bike better start fairly quick because it won't crank as long.
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Short the terminals of a AGM and you will get a big spark and probably melt the cable. If you inadvertently short the terminals of a lithium battery you don't want to be close!!! You'll explode the pouches, the black goo is really hard to clean off, and the "smoke" is a mix of acids. BTDT
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So with the above adding to copying below from my post on ADV, you can see why I consider lithium not to be an upgrade, it is an alternative.
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ADV already has a 100+ page thread about the different battery types, here, with a unofficial moderator who knows his battery stuff:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757934
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While I wouldn't get rid of a Li battery if the bike already had one installed from a previous owner, I highly recommend not buying one for an adventure bike. The AGM remains the right battery for 95% of the users here.
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We have two basic battery types available; AGM and lithium ion. The AGMs are lead-acid chemistry, very similar to the old cells with the removable caps, but with improvements which inhibit plate warpage and sulfidation. This is why the AGMs last years longer than the old batteries. They also are sealed and have no problem when the bike ends up in unusual positions. AGM is what nearly all bikes now come with stock.
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The positive two aspects of lithium batteries are (1) lowest weight (think cell phones and race bikes) and (2) a flat discharge curve through the range/state of charge. That flat discharge curve mean that your starter motor will have one speed - fast - until the cell is discharged. However, the weight saving is probably less than the weight of mud you will pick up on a ride, so that weight savings really doesn't make much difference for the high price. Further, when you are miles from a road the lithium battery will work and then it won't. You don't get the warning that it is nearly discharged which an AGM will provide.
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While both battery types lose capacity when cold, the capacities are typically specified for room temp. Compare charts which show the loss of capacity when the temperature gets into the 30s and less and the Li-ion loses capacity a LOT faster. Li-ion electrolyte is a very light petroleum that feels similar to a thin baby oil or like a clear version of transmission fluid and suspended in the oil are the lithium ions. The oil thickens as temperatures fall below about freezing, making it harder for the ions to move and the internal resistance of the cell increases almost exponentially, so the efficiency of the cell decreases. Thinking you might be able to warm he cell to get more capacity, you could turn on the headlight, which depletes charge fast, the cells do not evenly heat, so you still aren't getting full capacity, and I've seen tests where about 30% of the energy goes into heat within the cell. Again, for an adventure bike, this is probably not what you want.
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Charging lithium batteries in freezing conditions can reduce their life very fast. They also don't last well when they get hotter than about 160F and a lot of motorcycle batteries are next to an exhaust &/or used in very hot climates. (black paint in the sun can get to 190F)
.

Li batteries used as motorcycle batteries do not contain actual lithium metal and if there is a fire, it is the electrolyte oil which burns. They burn hot, because oxygen is in the cell with the flammable electrolyte. Lithium ion cells also are more difficult to control the charge and if damaged can overheat or burn, as opposed to a lead-acid battery, which generally just shorts out internally and becomes unusable.
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For these trade-offs, you might save 8 lbs in a 300+ lb bike which is carried fairly low in the first place. For context 4 gallons of gas is about 24 pounds and for most bikes is carried much higher.
 
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Has anyone replaced the stock Yuasa with a lithium battery and if so, do you have a recommendation? Given the longer expected life of the lithium battery and slower self discharge rate, it seems like a good choice for this area (CO) where I cannot always ride every month.
 

Checkswrecks

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FrontRangeRider said:
Has anyone replaced the stock Yuasa with a lithium battery and if so, do you have a recommendation? Given the longer expected life of the lithium battery and slower self discharge rate, it seems like a good choice for this area (CO) where I cannot always ride every month.

Merged into one of the many threads discussing li-ion.


In short, li-ion has a slower discharge rate but the bike has parasitic drains which will draw it down like the OEM AGM battery would. Either will do better if you disconnect a terminal for the winter and occasionally put a charger on them.


But for all the other aspects of batteries, the AGM is still a fine and less expensive choice, especially if you upgrade to the 14S from the stock 12S.
 
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Checkswrecks - Thanks for merging my post into this thread. I had read portions of the thread but it was good to read it start to finish. My Beta came with a Li battery and KTM is now spec'ing Li batteries for their bikes so that got me interested in them as an option for the S10. I started looking at options because my battery seems to not be starting my bike very enthusiastically. I'll have a look at the 14S when I spring for the new battery. Riding season is mostly over here (1 degree this morning, temps never got over high 20s and it is snowing as I type this) so I will wait until I expect to be riding more frequently to make the purchase.
 

BWC

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FrontRangeRider said:
Has anyone replaced the stock Yuasa with a lithium battery and if so, do you have a recommendation? Given the longer expected life of the lithium battery and slower self discharge rate, it seems like a good choice for this area (CO) where I cannot always ride every month.
I did a post waaaaay back in 2014 regarding the install of an EarthX ETX24C battery in my 2012. So it looks like it would be a good time for another update.
Was installed in March of 2014 at 53,000 km and 4 years later now at 133,000 km and still doing fine. It has pretty much seen it all from starting a frost covered bike, to 43C on a 3 flags ride this past Sept from Abbotsford BC to Peurto Penasco Mexico.
At the time the Yuasa YTZ12S was $212.00 CA here at the local dealer and the EarthX was $260.00 CA. I checked recently and the ETX24C is now up to $320.00 CA. Although it's performed well, it's doubtful I would replace it with another at that price.
One of my main reasons for choosing this brand is it's built in battery monitoring system which is not supposed to allow over/undercharging of the battery.
It does always show close to 1 volt higher on my dash voltmeter with the key on compared to the old Yuasa. And it does crank over a little stronger also. I have left it for as long as 4 months without charging and it dropped from 13.35 at the battery terminals to 13.28 but started the bike just fine.
EarthX recommends the ETX18C but I chose to move up to the ETX24C to try and avoid having to wait for it to warm up for colder starts.
And I just acquired a new to me 13 Tenere and I've moved the EarthX over to it so maybe we shall see just how long they're good for.
 
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