***KNOCK ON THE DOOR*** Carbon tear down

[PineLaneRider]

Guess I'll start the Techron regimen. I want to hear this Dynamo Hum! Ok, a little poetic lisence with the title...

How often should one add for preventive maintenance purposes?

 

[Fennellg]

While your oil is well regarded, it is Exotic and expensive not to mention because of the price not as widely used or tested in our bikes. At this point R&D has gotten expensive. We are dealing with a great deal of Extrapolation. But due to the expense, down time, and heart ache a proven course might be prudent. The Shot gun can be a useful gun.

A friend of mine put 150 K on an air cooled RT. He ran regular valvoline. I asked him why. I had an air cooled Harley ran car Mobil 1. Seemed to me the virtues of a synthetic in an air cooled engine should not be ignored.

He said this oil was cheap, effective and proven. His forums were littered with high mile success stores. Given his miles I would say he saved money and got the most out of his bike. He now has a water cooled RT, but still has his old bike and runs it from time to time or loans it when some one in our crews bike is down and we want to travel

 

[Wheelin]

While your oil is well regarded, it is Exotic and expensive not to mention because of the price not as widely used or tested in our bikes. At this point R&D has gotten expensive. We are dealing with a great deal of Extrapolation. But due to the expense, down time, and heart ache a proven course might be prudent. The Shot gun can be a useful gun.

A friend of mine put 150 K on an air cooled RT. He ran regular valvoline. I asked him why. I had an air cooled Harley ran car Mobil 1. Seemed to me the virtues of a synthetic in an air cooled engine should not be ignored.

He said this oil was cheap, effective and proven. His forums were littered with high mile success stores. Given his miles I would say he saved money and got the most out of his bike. He now has a water cooled RT, but still has his old bike and runs it from time to time or loans it when some one in our crews bike is down and we want to travel

I’m all for going cheaper. I’ll need to anyway, after footing the repair bill!

 

[Fennellg]

Well She’ll Rotella regular or synth is widely used there other oils are well regarded. The Rotella has a lot of bang for the buck it’s probably the most popular. The advise gets endless and nauseating, be wary of the Rabbit hole.

 

[tntmo]

I have ran that glorious Rotella in all my bikes for the last several years, or if it was not available I would use whatever other diesel oil there was. Now with my current Austrian machine, the forum members slobber all over themselves to talk about the exotic Motul or Motorex in odd viscosities like 10W-60 that costs between $70-$100 for a gallon of it. The claim is that the "race ready" engine has some sort of fancy bearings that will self destruct, get your dog pregnant, give your great aunt shingles and infest your home with termites if you use anything else. I am due for an oil change, trying to decide what to do. So far I only found one post about someone putting Rotella in a KTM and that guy never posted again. I think he's hanging out with Jimmy Hoffa now....

 

[Fennellg]

Well my BMW friend taught me a valuable trick. Check the forums and find out what works And more money does not mean better.

 

[Wheelin]

Well my BMW friend taught me a valuable trick. Check the forums and find out what works And more money does not mean better.

Consider me a “permanent lurker”.

 

[~TABASCO~]

I don't EVEN want to add to the "oil" story ... But these engines do tend to carbon up a bit. Ive had probably serval hundred conversations with owners over the last 11 years. When I see dirty valves, I have the "how do you typically ride your bike" conversation, there tends to be one general commonality of all these conversations..... In MY experience from those conversations, is that they ride there bike virtually the same 'style'...

I don't want to get all deep in the weeds on describing this 'style'... I don't want to worry or scare anyone that comes across this post. I dont feel that this needs to be said out loud, but in todays world I guess you have to spell it out.... MY OPINION is from years of experience with this specific bike. My knowledge is NOT the golden rule. I dont know everything in the whole wide world. Im taking my experience and sharing it with a educated guess.

I always suggest, using your favorite flavor of gas treatments pretty often, dont lug the motor around, don't always shift your bike at same RPM, and run it up in the RPM's at least once a ride.

And have a fun safe wonderful afternoon !

 

[Jlq1969]

I have ran that glorious Rotella in all my bikes for the last several years, or if it was not available I would use whatever other diesel oil there was. Now with my current Austrian machine, the forum members slobber all over themselves to talk about the exotic Motul or Motorex in odd viscosities like 10W-60 that costs between $70-$100 for a gallon of it. The claim is that the "race ready" engine has some sort of fancy bearings that will self destruct, get your dog pregnant, give your great aunt shingles and infest your home with termites if you use anything else. I am due for an oil change, trying to decide what to do. So far I only found one post about someone putting Rotella in a KTM and that guy never posted again. I think he's hanging out with Jimmy Hoffa now....

Remember that the gears on the KTM are coated with copper. The use of an incorrect lubricant non dielectric, could generate an electrostatic field, and this energy can be attracted by the electrostatic field generated by the friction between your pants and the seat... This is just so you know where the spark could enter

 

[tntmo]

Remember that the gears on the KTM are coated with copper. The use of an incorrect lubricant non dielectric, could generate an electrostatic field, and this energy can be attracted by the electrostatic field generated by the friction between your pants and the seat... This is just so you know where the spark could enter

On the forums, I've heard that the bearings are silver coated, the innards of the engine have a "racing spec coating", the metal used has different properties than other bikes....all kinds of stuff! Yeah, here I am getting into an oil thread but darn it, I just love all that forum knowledge! Anyway, I know my previous Italian Husqvarna demanded some crazy Euro spec oil and I ran Rotella in it and it never left me stranded. I ran Rotella in my old 2002 KTM, I think I'm going to take my chances with the termites and do it on this 690.

Don't worry, I am running it up to redline often and I put the front tire in the air every ride. I think that's the key, it worked for the Tenere and the Tiger I had before that so I'm sticking with it.

 

[Fennellg]

Well, let me repeat myself. Use the forum that is specific to your bike. I only mentioned the Hyundai forum because it recommended an oil heavily used my our members and seemed to help. (T6) The catch can also helped . Thinner oils seem to accelerate the problem. 0w 20 for me. I incorrectly assumed it would hold together because it was synthetic and Mobil One.

when I ragged the car I would get a black carbon cloud from time to time. Much less often now that I have the catch can and the 5w 20 after the treatment. And runs like a top no more ruff idle.

like I often tell my wife “When she starts out with “I thought…..”. some bad shit went down and she wants me to make it better

 

[~TABASCO~]

The 'catch can' is an interesting thought. This bike does have quite a bit of oil vapor coming up from the valve cover into the air box. Ive thought about a catch can in the past, I would just custom build my own. In my case, I basically have a catch can already. I run UNI filters, and as the oil vapor is being sucked up into the air box, the vapor gets caught in the foam filters and eventually falls (drips) to the bottom and is sitting in the bottom of the air box (on the clean side). So this in theory has no oil vapor being sucked down the intake runners, and not depositing onto the intake valves, or being burned (extra oil) and deposits on the exhaust valves. This is all good not to have that vapor heading into the engine, just finally collecting it out of the bottom of the air box occasionally and disposing of it properly.............. (with the use of the UNI foam filters)

But, most folks run a factory panel filter or after market panel filter. In this case you have a dirty side, and a clean side of the air box. The valve cover oil vapor is being dumped into the clean side. Everything that is still "oil-vapor" is being sucked right into the intake and down the chute, onto the the intake valves and combustion chamber. This could be more than most people think.

With the "thought" of 'the type of oil' being introduced in this manner lead to carbon'ed up valves. Or overly dirty valves?

Ive always noticed that 95%+ of Super Teneres have a wet (wet= oil) air box down on the clean side. Im guessing 1-5+ Tbsp of oil. Thats a lot of 'remaining' oil, what happened to all the oil vapor go? Down in the motor. This is another good reason to check the little clear rubber nipple on the left side of the air box and keep it "drained" and an eye on the volume that comes out.

Ive always thought that any oil burning would not help with keeping things clean, but how was its getting in? Yamaha has a very good track record with valve guides, rings, pistons, and normal stuff.... So how might this oil be getting down in the motor..... valve cover / air box / oil vapor?

 

[Fennellg]

Now you are seeing. I ran 5 w 20 and ragged it. Treatments in the gas. Situation more or less Stable. Then I got the idea to go 0w 20 and the problem got the upper hand. More drastic measures, the treatment in the vacuumed hose, catch can and a return to the thicker oil. Situation resolved. ( Lessons gleamed from my car).

Reminds me of my doctor, you know the guy we wait around for who is always late and charges you out the ass. We put up with it because we need him to keep breathing. Got type 2 a few years back. Beat it back to floating in the lower ranges sometimes pre diabetes. Life sucked I was miserable even though he was pleased and taking all the credit.

Then all hell broke loose my metphormin was causing complications. You cant stay on the stuff forever. I found another way got off all my meds and have a A1c in the high 4s now. He once commented that my numbers were better than his but he was not a diabetic. Looked at me as so many others later had with A dismissive contentment that I was screwed and I’m on a slow train to hell sort of like a cancer patient.

when my numbers became so good he wanted to know what I had done. No meds whatsoever and perfect Metabolic health As measured by all known parameters. You see he sheepishly confessed that he was now pre diabetic.

I told him to stop making all these appointment, 1 a month. Come my my house, I am 2 miles away. I won’t make you wait, I won’t charge you, I will even share a bottle of wine and cheese I will tell all about it.

 

[Highwayman]

Chevron Techron is supposed to work great for removing carbon buildup , $5.99 for a bottle at NAPA

Techron Complete Fuel System Cleaner | Chevron Lubricants (US)

www.chevronlubricants.com

Yep.... Ive used a bottle every oil change on every mc and auto for many years.... Never an issue.

Also over the many years as a mastertech, I had amazing results with GM's topend cleaner. Id personally suggest that route first before pulling the top end. Its spendy, but it does some great work. Ive had a few cars with top end deposits causing issues with smog tests and NOX on some high mileage cars I dealt with. The GM cleaner always cleaned em out & verified with a bore scope.

 

[WJBertrand]

Complete combustion would generate toxic (+/-) gases (CO, CO2, NOX, and others)...but incomplete combustion would generate less of these gases...preventing the fuel from burning completely, you would contaminate less...although carbon deposits are generated . One way to achieve this reduction in combustion would be to modify the degree of delay or advance of the spark….
I understand the carbon cleaner additives, I just don't like the expression:
“powerful detergent” + “Use it regularly”…..

Actually, complete combustion would generate only CO2 and H2O. Of course this is a perfect world and no engine accomplishes perfect compete combustion of fuel. The presence of carbon monoxide is evidence of incomplete combustion. The other products on incomplete combustion are the harmful “unburned hydrocarbons” you hear about. Burning the fuel less completely results in MORE harmful emissions, not less.

NOx emissions aren’t actually products of fuel combustion but rather are formed as a result of the oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere combining because of high combustion chamber temperatures. It’s a tricky compromise for manufacturers, higher combustion chamber temps tend to reduce CO and HC emissions (a good thing) but at the same time tends to increase NOx emissions (not so good).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Jlq1969]

Actually, complete combustion would generate only CO2 and H2O. Of course this is a perfect world and no engine accomplishes perfect compete combustion of fuel. The presence of carbon monoxide is evidence of incomplete combustion. The other products on incomplete combustion are the harmful “unburned hydrocarbons” you hear about. Burning the fuel less completely results in MORE harmful emissions, not less.

NOx emissions aren’t actually products of fuel combustion but rather are formed as a result of the oxygen and nitrogen in the atmosphere combining because of high combustion chamber temperatures. It’s a tricky compromise for manufacturers, higher combustion chamber temps tend to reduce CO and HC emissions (a good thing) but at the same time tends to increase NOx emissions (not so good).


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what you say is perfectly correct….but even with the existence of the electronic injection and its lamda sensor (which measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gases)….combustion in engines is still incomplete….and that is why it exists "after" the lamda sensors... the catalyst, to convert CO into CO2, and convert NOX into N2... If a rich mixture produces HC without burning, and a poor/ideal one produces NOX... the ideal would be to maintain stoichiometric at all times (and this is what the lamda sensor tries to do)…..but for some strange reason it doesn't and that's why the catalytic converter ends up doing the lamda's job….carbon deposits are more associated with poorly burned fuel (mixture rich = Poorly burned hydrocarbons HC)….. If the combustion were “complete”, the NOX that are produced in it, would probably be more difficult to control by the catalyst….that is why the catalysts have also been improving (double and triple)… and the engines have "decreased" the emission of NOX, using the EGR (which generates large carbon deposits on the cylinder head/EGR valve) apparently, the NOX are the most difficult to control (product of a "complete" combustion)

 

[Jlq1969]

"Preventing the correct sweep of the exhaust gases", in a certain way it would be a kind of EGR...
In general, those who modify the exhaust system (decat + muffler), (better exhaust gas sweep)….tend to feel a small loss of torque at low revs, but then They feel the engine revving faster. Probably this loss of torque at low revs is due to the fact that the piston is only compressing the aspirated air (there is no exhaust gas)….and for this reason the compression rate is minor, numerical: (cm3 of the cylinder/cm3 of the combustion chamber )……when before the modification, the compression ratio would be: (cm3 cylinder + cm3 of exhaust gas) / cm3 of the combustion chamber

 

[Fennellg]

From my car troubles It has everything to do with direct or port injection. Direct is to far down stream. The valves don’t get washed with fuel and carbon builds up. The direct yields a little bit more fuel efficiency.

many car makers have incorporated both port and direct injection. A hybrid solution to combat the problem, There are other things that can cause carbon buildup but the type of injection is the main culprit in the automobile world. Toyotas stayed away from direct injection. Never had this issue.

Once again for a modest gain in fuel economy, longevity and expensive repairs are gained. Manufactures would not go to this trouble and expense if it were not for government regulations.

On a related topic 0w oils are another example that seems to exasperate the problem all in an effort to increase gas mileage to placate the regulation.

This problem can compound, wrong injection system, wrong oil, wrong fuel octane…... Well you get the idea. That is why a multi prong attack often yields the best results. 1. Thicker oil, increased oil change interval, fuel additive, Install a catch can.

My efforts with my Sonata have yielded results With no expensive repairs. I am well beyond milages that others have achieved with no drastic interventions.

Truth is truth no matter the source. or the catch phrase my wife and I banter back and forth with “ Shingles doesn’t care“. Or our engines don’t care, they are prone to carbon buildup. Deal with it or don’t but the but carbon will build up under the correct circumstance.

Or if you like. “You can pay me now or you can pay me later.” (The carbon problem) Later gets costly

 

[Mr. BR]

Chevron Techron is supposed to work great for removing carbon buildup , $5.99 for a bottle at NAPA

I think a 12 oz bottle of Techron is good for 18 gallons??
Any benefit to upping the dosage and putting the whole bottle in our 6 gallon tank? (and then some heavy throttle).
Mr. BR

 

[Highwayman]

I think a 12 oz bottle of Techron is good for 18 gallons??
Any benefit to upping the dosage and putting the whole bottle in our 6 gallon tank? (and then some heavy throttle).
Mr. BR

I split a bottle in half for the bikes with a full tank at oil changes. No reason to dump a whole bottle in a 5 or 6 gallon tank.