Impressions from the CW Seattle Show

[markjenn]

At the Seattle CW show, Yamaha had two S10's on display and I had a chance to sit on both and examine them in some detail. (Sorry not to have any pictures - I'm nursing a bad shoulder from a bicycle accident this week and even holding a camera up to shoot is painful.) I did form some initial impressions that I hope might be useful.

The overwhelming one is that this bike is extremely comfortable with excellent ergos. The handlebar position, footpeg location, tank cutouts for one's knees, plush seat, and overall narrowness in the seating area make this bike probably the nicest "sitting in the showroom" bike I've ever experienced. I was especially impressed with the legroom, even with the seat in the low position. There is something about the narrowness of the bike and how it sits that just makes it very natural. I wonder if the distance between the footpegs on this bike is unusually narrow. There is something going on here besides CG which makes the bike feel lighter than it is. Great job Yamaha.

The bike also feels relatively small and trim compared to the GS. The GS may be lighter, but it feels bulkier, especially the GSA version. Not having huge cylinders sticking out each side of the bike does wonders to make the bike look and feel smaller. The instrument cluster is more compact, the shaft drives system is smaller, everything about the bike just has a slightly scaled-down, 7/8th's appearance.

As a couple others have commented, the fit/finish is not anything to write home about. I see a lot of cheap plastic and areas where the bike has some obvious cost-cutting. This bike has little of the almost jewel-like fit/finish of the R6 I used to own and I think it is probably even a step down from the FJR. The exhaust with its plastic cover and outlet looks especially tacky and the plastic luggage rack can be bent with one's hands. But all this is pretty subjective - I'm sure functionally the bike will work fine.

One of the models at the show was fully decked out with the Yamaha accessory packages (bags, skid plate, crash bars, heated grips), and the other was a stripper. I really liked the look of the Yamaha bags and much prefer the simpler way they mount compared to many of the aftermarket bags, but even the Yamaha representative - who probably has a lot of experience - was having trouble with the fiddly locks, especially getting the bags on/off the bike. This looks like a weak point of the bags. The crash bars look Okay, but I found the bar running across the front of the bike to be obtrusive. The heated grips look functional, but have a ugly tacked-on controller and cost a fortune. All in all, I don't think any of the factory accessories for this bike are up to the quality of the rest of the package. I may buy the panniers just to get the simpler mounts, but I doubt I'll get anything else. I may even "run bare" on crash guards. I want to keep my bike as light as possible - I'd rather avoid a crash or tipover with a lighter bike than survive one with a heavier bike.

All in all, I was very impressed and have no doubt I'll enjoy the bike immensely when it arrives.

- Mark

 

[Swagger]

.... All in all, I was very impressed and have no doubt I'll enjoy the bike immensely when it arrives ....

You will. I had similar opinions when I first rode one. In fact I wasn't actually impressed at all. Of course all of that changed. The luggage locks are a bit flakey .... it is easy to bend the keys ... I've seen this done several times. The XT660 runs similar boxes. Once you know how to deal with them and lube them up they're fine.

 

[trinc4me]

Mark, I certainly appreciate your detailed description of the S10. Even without a picture I was visualizing every aspect you described. Best wishes for a speedy recovery for your shoulder (BTW, had a friend who was training for Ironman Hawaii a few years ago and had a bike wreck and injured his shoulder.......he had to miss the race and re-qualify all over again the next year).

 

[markjenn]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery for your shoulder (BTW, had a friend who was training for Ironman Hawaii a few years ago and had a bike wreck and injured his shoulder.......he had to miss the race and re-qualify all over again the next year).

Thanks for your concern. I just cornered slightly too hard in a parking lot and some combo of PacNW greasy/wet pavement and perhaps some leaves put me hard on the deck. Lucky not to have broken something. Makes me wonder how close I have been to traction limits in a lot of situations this fall, whether on the bicycle or motorcycle. I thought I was riding pretty conservatively, but I'm slowing it down even more - I don't bounce up like I used to.

- Mark

 

[Ollie]

Nice write up! Thanks.

 

[3putt]

I'm also of the mind to try and keep it light as possible, no crashbars unless someone really impresses me with some.

Wonder how a reinforced side plates to replace the plastic would do, will take a look when I finally get the bike.

 

[Swagger]

.... Wonder how a reinforced side plates to replace the plastic would do ...

You wanna have a word with Mr Yamaha .... someone built those superb carbon fibre units for the Worldcrosser that'd be a good starting point.

 

[trinc4me]

Best wishes for a speedy recovery for your shoulder (BTW, had a friend who was training for Ironman Hawaii a few years ago and had a bike wreck and injured his shoulder.......he had to miss the race and re-qualify all over again the next year).

Thanks for your concern. I just cornered slightly too hard in a parking lot and some combo of PacNW greasy/wet pavement and perhaps some leaves put me hard on the deck. Lucky not to have broken something. Makes me wonder how close I have been to traction limits in a lot of situations this fall, whether on the bicycle or motorcycle. I thought I was riding pretty conservatively, but I'm slowing it down even more - I don't bounce up like I used to.

- Mark

I know what you mean about "not bouncing up like you use to". I love to do bicycle rides up in the mountains of NC. Fortunately most of the fast descents are big sweeping turns so nothing too technical. My wife and I ride the tandem now and again and descending on that is loads of fun! Thanks again for the write-up and continued best wishes on your recovery........

Bob

 

[pnwroamer]

...seems to be several "euro" Tenere's in the states at the moment???
The previous weekend a Yamaha rep. rode one up to Burlington Wa. for a preview (supposedly N.A. debut). Not only were there two others, besides that one, at the Seattle Cycle Show, but there was a third all muddied up that had just come into the show from a day of off roading, (Alt Rider) so..., that makes four in the PNW in the last several days.

Much discussion of the non disengaging of the ABS but it seems some folks have already figured a work-around for that. Also stated (if not mentioned elsewhere) is that Jimmy Lewis has been/ will be out on a 500 mile off road excursion to review the Tenere for Cycle World (hope I got that right?)

The (plastic) panniers with their high accessory cost are steering me towards aftermarket alum., with some quick detach mounts. (S.W. Motech, Trax). Looks to be a lot of aftermarket stuff already showing up!

It was a good showing for the Super Ten in Seattle thase past two weekends!!!

(now to ponder parting with the Feejer????)

 

[markjenn]

(now to ponder parting with the Feejer????)

I love my FJR, but I don't think I'll miss it that much. I base this opinion on the experiences of a good friend who five years ago replaced a stable of pavement-only sport-touring bikes with a GS. He thinks the GS is the match of them all for everything except perhaps 5% of his riding, the 5% being the very high-speed, smooth pavement, hard-charging stuff - for everything else, he thinks the GS is better.... more upright/comfortable, less weight, more nimble, better on rough roads, better for carrying loads, etc. The S10 should do as well or better.

Net, net: Huge gain in versatility with a small loss in capability in a relatively narrow range of riding situations. Good trade-off, IMHO.

- Mark

 

[hANNAbONE]

(now to ponder parting with the Feejer????)

I love my FJR, but I don't think I'll miss it that much. I base this opinion on the experiences of a good friend who five years ago replaced a stable of pavement-only sport-touring bikes with a GS. He thinks the GS is the match of them all for everything except perhaps 5% of his riding, the 5% being the very high-speed, smooth pavement, hard-charging stuff - for everything else, he thinks the GS is better.... more upright/comfortable, less weight, more nimble, better on rough roads, better for carrying loads, etc. The S10 should do as well or better.

Net, net: Huge gain in versatility with a small loss in capability in a relatively narrow range of riding situations. Good trade-off, IMHO.

- Mark

Well Stated, Mark...my thinking also.!

 

[chickey191]

this is a good summary - the only thing your friend is not commenting on and one more reason to go to the XT12Z - is the lack of reliability exhibited by BMW over the last dozen years - along with their unwillingness and arrogance in dealing with their problems. Like the R bikes that surged and though BMW did multiple redesigns on the spark arrangement, mapping and fuel delivery - they never admitted that their was a surging problem.
same goes for the rear drive failures on many of their bikes - notably the K1200LT - and the GS - since 1999. They only grudgingly admit that (some beemerphiles still don't).

I would totally agree that the GS is an incredibly capable bike (I ride my wife's all the time) and as stated - is suitable for a variety of terrains and riding conditions and can smoke a lot of bikes on the road. Handles extremely well and while no one would call it a power house - it can certainly top the ton and do so most of the day. Not the best weather protection out there, but serviceable. I gave up on BMW after having a few and my wife having a couple - and went to the FJR because of its rock solid stability, more than enough power and though a little heavy was enough of a canyon carver to keep me happy. If the XT12Z is even close to the handling and all-rounder that the GS is - and does so with the reliability of a Yamaha, with the added capability of being a somewhat dual purpose bike - then I will be extremely happy.

And yes - I remember Yamaha and the "ticking" FJR's - but in the end.... they fixed them and fixed the problem. BMW is still trying to figure out their problem which is harder to do if you don't admit it exists.

 

[Ollie]

...seems to be several "euro" Tenere's in the states at the moment???
The previous weekend a Yamaha rep. rode one up to Burlington Wa. for a preview (supposedly N.A. debut). Not only were there two others, besides that one, at the Seattle Cycle Show, but there was a third all muddied up that had just come into the show from a day of off roading, (Alt Rider) so..., that makes four in the PNW in the last several days.

Much discussion of the non disengaging of the ABS but it seems some folks have already figured a work-around for that. Also stated (if not mentioned elsewhere) is that Jimmy Lewis has been/ will be out on a 500 mile off road excursion to review the Tenere for Cycle World (hope I got that right?)

The (plastic) panniers with their high accessory cost are steering me towards aftermarket alum., with some quick detach mounts. (S.W. Motech, Trax). Looks to be a lot of aftermarket stuff already showing up!

It was a good showing for the Super Ten in Seattle thase past two weekends!!!

(now to ponder parting with the Feejer????)

Here's one way to disable the abs. I like the extra slot with no corresponding label. Wink, wink from yamaha, "put the abs fuse in this slot to disable."

I have a feeling everything I post here will be a year behind what everyone else already knows, so when I do just respond with..."we KNOW ollie." ;D

 

[Chadx]

My take on the Seattle Ténéré

We know, Ollie! Ha. But it's worth repeating since the ABS seems to have become such a hot topic (especially by the journalists that haven't ridden them in steep offroad situations). I'm still waiting for someone to make some videos since those that have ridden them in the loose steeps say the freewheeling issue, that plagues the BMW ABS, doesn't occur with the Super Ténéré. I would love to see some video examples of it working or not working as advertised. By the way, the less cumbersome way to temporarily disable the ABS, without pulling off the side panel and pulling the fuse, is putting it on the center stand, putting the bike in gear and letting the rear wheel spin. Then it will throw an ABS Error, your dash light will blink, and you can ride with no ABS until you next key off and restart of the bike. Now my turn to hear it. "We all know that trick, already, Chad!" Ha.

I flew out of Helena, MT Saturday morning and spent the day at the Seattle show, then flew home late that night. Of the 8 hours I was on the show floor, I probably spent a total of 3 hours, off and on, within 20 feet of the two ST in the Yamaha booth and another hour, off and on, talking with Jeremy, Christina and the other Altrider folks at their booth.

There was a lot of excitement about these bikes. Many that saw them didn't even know what they were. Many had already ordered, plan to, or wanted to but can't swing it. But the vast majority seemed to know what they were, were curious, but had no intent of buying such a bike. One of the reps (Wayne, I think) was first-hand knowledgeable and had put a few hundred miles on the one bike. It looked like it had been used a bit as the bike with the panniers had a good scuff mark around the right side case. I spent the day crawling on the Super Tens, then going and crawling over other bikes, then coming back and sitting on the ST again. By going and sitting on other bikes to 'cleanse my palate', it really gave me a good idea of how I fit on the bike compared to other bikes and I fit it well. Sitting on the bike in person was the final detail and I plan on ordering this week. The rep suspected that orders placed now wouldn't show up in the middle of summer.

The bikes at the Yamaha booth were UK spec bikes, but with black seat and side panels like what the US bikes will have. These bikes were not US spec bikes like I heard some people saying. The U.S. version hasn't even started being produced yet, so it is just not possible that these were U.S. spec bikes. That and the Yamaha rep confirmed they were UK spec bikes. The bike that Jeremy had at the Altrider booth was borrowed from someone in Australia so had the silver side panels and seat color. It is going to the California show and then heading back to Australia because customs would only allow it to remain in the U.S. for a fixed amount of time (and maybe the owner is missing his bike, too). Jeremy showed me the footage they had shot Friday morning before bringing the bike into the show. If you saw how much mud covered the bike, you'll understand why when you see the mudholes he was slamming through.

Altrider's Super Ten on stage during Jeremy's talk:

A few people asked me to hold their bag while they sat on the bike. I had on a Yamaha blue shirt with a WR250R on the front so I seemed to get mistaken for a Yami rep more than once. Ha. So, on to my personal impressions, which largely jive with Mark's in the first post...

Ergonomics: It just plain fit me. I am 6' tall and usually wear pants with 32" inseam and a sleeve length of 34.5". A lot of my height is in my torso. I had on hiking boots that have soles about the same height as my riding boots. On the bike with the seat in the tall position (which was the bike without panniers), I could plant both feet firmly with only about an inch under each heal. A slight shift either way had one foot flatfooting and the ball of my other foot firmly planed with that one heal a bit over 1" off the ground. With the seat in the shorter position (the bike with the panniers), I could flat foot both feet if my feet were slightly in front of the pegs and my legs were in narrow against the bike. If my legs were beside the pegs and spread more (where I would normally put down my feet), my heals were hovering just barely off the ground. Handlebar position seems pretty good for me, but I will probably raise them and determine what bar bend changes, if any, I want after logging some miles. I tend to prefer bars with the least amount of pullback I can get. I put the bike up on the centerstand (easily) and tried the standing position. A bit hard to tell since the rear wheel is lifted up and the front is is lower than usual while on the centerstand, but standing ergonomics were good for me, minus the usual bars being a touch low. While standing, I didn't notice anything awkward that my legs or knees touched.

Fit and finish:
This seemed fairly decent to me. But I'm more of a function over form kind of guy. It's no show bike, but isn't meant to be. To me, it was a feast for the eyes. Maybe I already drank the kool-aid and turned a blind eye to some things others thought were a lesser finish. That being said, mine will be used on trails and not just gravel roads and tarmac and I'll end up with places that will never again be showroom clean after the first few rides...so, I plan to take lots of "beauty pageant" pictures when it's new because it will never look the same again. Speaking of pictures. I took a bunch at the Yamaha and Altrider boothes, so will post a few of those now and maybe a few more later. They are not the best quality since I only brought my point-and-shoot. I didn't want to lug around my SLR all day and while flying.

Design:
Overall, I am really impressed by the design of this bike. Really thought out. I like the double-sided swingarm, which, as mentioned above, allows for a much more petite looking shaft drive since it doesn't need to account for the stresses of a single-sided swing arm à la 1200GS. Regarding weight, whatever Yami did to make this very heavy bike feel lighter, they were successful. As others, I was amazed when I sat on it and quickly flopped it back and forth. Also amazed at how easily it popped up onto the center stand and how far you could lean over the bike, while standing next to it holding only the handlebars, before the bike's weight became apparent. I did that maneuver very early in the day (I was the fifth one through the door) before there were crowds around and before the reps were hovering around. I'm sure they saw me, from behind their counter, lean it waaaay over and their hearts skipped a beat. I did that to the non-pannier bike and I suspect that I leaned it over far enough that, had it been the panniered-bike, the pannier would have nearly touched the ground. I'll be good picking it up by myself if it's in a reasonable position and not in a wheels-higher-up-the-hill-than-the-bars position.

There looked to be reasonable rider coverage including leg coverage. When others were sitting on the bike, I made a point of looking down the length of it standing directly in front of the bike and as far back as the building's wall would let me (maybe 15 or 20 feet) and I could not see the persons knees. The shrouds stuck out far enough. Not sure how that will alter the impact of rain and runoff, but I think a few Euro, UK or Australian riders have confirmed there is some degree of leg weather protection. The windshield attachments looked a tad flimsy (possibly why Yamaha recommends against moving the stock windshield to a higher position) and, on the one bike, looked a bit used. I think these models must have had the screens moved up and down quite a few times. I plan on going with a CalSci screen on will figure out the best position and leave it. If money was no object, Wasp's fully adjustable windscreen bracket looks interesting and will save wear and tear on unscrewing the windshield bolts and moving it around if you are the type that wants to change the wind blast depending on outdoor temps, length or ride, and precipitation. An area of special interest to me were the mounting holes for auxiliary lights. As Wasp had done, I intend to mount two of the 10watt LED lights. Not sure if I'll go with two flood lights or with one flood and one spot. I just may have to see the floodlight's light spread/pattern first to decide, but it's advertised as only 35 degrees and I want a good spread to shine not only ahead, but into the ditches.

Extras:
I wasn't too impressed by the Yamaha accessories. The heated grips controller is enough of a joke to be the final reason to not buy the yamaha heated grips (the price being the primary reason). There is no excuse for that controller to be that big or placed in that mounting spot on such a flimsy mount. Compare that controller with a Gerbings or Warm and Safe controller and you'll see how a good controller is designed. The skid plate looks good, but as others have found, the mounting method is light-duty. Perhaps intentional so there is some give, but in my eyes, if you use mounting points that are safe to mount to, you don't need to worry about building-in sacrificial brackets (read: crush zones) in a skid plate. The crash bars are fairly nice. Yamaha went the route of protecting the engine cases with little side protection for the shrouds, which will touch town before the cases. The upper hoop may or may not help in protection the shroud. It will if the highest object, in the direct path on the side that you fall towards, hits that small bar. 2" further back, and the object is going through your radiator if you fall left or battery/fuse panel if you fall to the right. I prefer the aftermarket crash guards that cover a larger area of the side panel. Most of the skid plates seem better thought out, too. The altrider kit was good stuff. Well thought out mounting points and bracket strength taken to the next level. They had skidplate, crashbars, additional guards for the right and left heal areas, side-stand foot, 'double-decker' rear rack, etc. Some pieces were still in design stage and were going to have one or two more tweaks, but it was all thought out and I'll be watching their stuff closely when I start ordering goodies next April or so.

I'm sure I'll think of a few more thoughts to add later, but that is my first whack at it. I'm going to go ahead and submit this before I lose it and will go search for typos later.

There was not enough room to get a 'how does your foot touch' picture, so this angled one will have to do. Again, I'm 6' tall, 32" inseam, 34.5" sleeve length and this is the bike with the seat in the high position. My heals are maybe 1" off the ground. The slightest shift right or left had one foot flatfoot and the other with the heal raised only slightly more than an inch, but total pressure and support with the ball of that foot.

 

[Ollie]

Nice write up. I'll have to pick through the details of what you wrote and come back with questions.

 

[markjenn]

this is a good summary - the only thing your friend is not commenting on and one more reason to go to the XT12Z - is the lack of reliability exhibited by BMW over the last dozen years - along with their unwillingness and arrogance in dealing with their problems....

Nobody has any hard data, but I've had pretty good luck with my BMWs, as has my friend with his GS. Just my opinion, but I think they're solid bikes with a lot of nice attributes, including some areas where I think they do a more thorough engineering job than the Japaneses. Now, they do have their issues and some have gotten some pretty wide coverage, but then the same is true of most bike makes. Overall, my gut is that Yamaha, in general, makes a more reliable product, and this is a plus with the S10, but I would have no issue whatsoever with owning a GS and using it with confidence for long trips, just like my friend does. When we tour together next year, he on the GS and me on the S10, I'll pay no more worry to his bike than mine.

- Mark

 

[chickey191]

good luck to you.
unfortunately - my list of friends with BMW failures is a Long one - and they have plenty of data. So do I with two final drive failures on my K12LT. the first at about 75,000 miles and the second about 25k later. I have a friend with a GT - that has had 3 failures - one on the way home from getting it fixed (admittedly, it was a 1,500 mile trip home).

I had an RT with surging so bad that it was almost unrideable at parking lot speeds. Had three Master Techs work it over and end up telling me "that's the way they are". A quick search of the internet will reveal dozens of "fixes" for surging R bikes - pre-dual plugging them. Even my K bike surged though it was so heavy that you didn't notice it much.

I could live with 75k on a bike for the rear end falls off - but not when the dealers were saying that "it isn't a problem" or "they never heard of that happening before". And with the district Service Rep tells you the same. Head in the sand - plus arrogance is not what I paid some serious money for when I bought BMW. I bought Rock Solid reliability or at least the reputation for it. You put up with over weight and underpowered bikes for handling and reliability. Remember when they had UNLIMITED mileage warranties? Funny how that stopped in 1999 - about the same time as their drives started to fail.

I too rode my beemer cross country several times (hence over 100k on the clock of the LT) - but after the second failure I was afraid to ride it across the state and checked the rear end at every gas stop for signs of dripping oil.

I do believe that they have improved lately - their focus on taking the extra weight out of their bikes - and increasing horsepower to attract a new generation of riders is going to pay off for them. The new GT is awesome and I'm also partial to the K/S and would love to ride an RR to experience that level of motor performance. Perhaps some day they will lure me back.

I spent a week riding the Alps this fall - on a rented BMW - split time on a RT and a GT. I was supposed to get a GS, but ended up with the RT while my friend got the GT - and we switched off. At the end of the day I was thinking about perhaps buying another one - but came to my senses when I got home and back on my FJR.

All I ever do with the FJR is buy tires and oil. Once a year or two I buy some new plugs and give it a Throttle Body Sync. Crap - 100k+ on the clock and I haven't even changed LIGHT BULBS. I did buy a new battery after 5 years. Yes - there was a recall on the instrument cluster for something pretty silly and there is one on the ignition switch - but it is the very definition of rock solid.

My wife's GS has also been solid and hopefully it will remain so. However.... I watch the rear end like a hawk and try my best to stay out of the local shop. the old song about HD in Harley Davidson standing for Hundred Dollars is similar to BMW standing for Bring More Wampum.

But again - best of luck to everyone riding a Rondel bike. to each their own and they make some nice stuff. I'm also hoping that the XT12Z puts more competition into the market and forces BMW to pick up the pace on development. The VeeStrom has certainly sold well and hopefully the Super Ten will also. Can't wait for MINE.

 

[hANNAbONE]

Well Lads :

Between Chickey's & Chad's write-ups i don't know where to start.

1st - Chad - a remarkable writeup..many thanks for getting your hands quite "dirty" with the new sled and getting us some real time pix
& rubbin' elbows with the boys in the know. both Jeremy & Yammy rep.
Great job outta you.

2nd - Chickey - I too have had multiple final drive issues. 2000 RT with 25K & '03 KRS with 31K.
I still own an '07 K12R.sport semi-naked with 32K. It seems rock solid - but I know it's a time bomb. I could buy Extended warranty
thru the end of this month - have yet to do it...4 more years will cost me $1500.
Probably won't

Thanks to all of you & MarkJenn for getting the newest news to us.!

 

[eemsreno]

Chadx
Thanks for all the info . keep it coming with more pictures

 

[Buckeye56]

GUys, thanks so much for your hands-on impressions. It only reenforces that my decision to buy the S10 sight unseen was correct. I won't get a chance to see the bike until the Cleveland shop in January but this is almost as good!