Help with hard start....pretty please

[greg the pole]

So I'm supposed to be taking off on a 6 day trip today except my bike has decided it want to stay home instead.

It sounds exactly like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvMeUMgSwPQ

I've let It sit overnight tried:
-starting it the normal way (no throttle)
-tried wot
-tried the efi fuse
-pulled each plug out (soaked), cleaned them with a torch, and cleaned out the cylinders with compressed air.
-I do have spark on both cylinders
-Battery reads 12.8V

I smell nothing but gas coming out of the exhaust pipe....

still nothing, turns over lethargically pops once in a while, and ::010::

Battery is fine, boosting it off my car results in the same exact slow ass turning..and still nothing.

should I find a really really steep hill, get a run, dump it into second, and see if it goes? I'm out of ideas. :'(

 

[Dirt_Dad]

I doubt there is anything I can tell you that you don't already know.

I know for me WOT does not work as quickly as I'd hope. Can still take me a considerable amount of cranking at WOT before it even begins to suggests it might fire at some point in the future.

That's the only solution I've ever used in the 4 episodes I've had between the two bikes.

Good luck.

 

[offcamber]

That really sounds like bad battery to me...

I know you said yo tried jumping it but it still seems like a weak battery....

Perhaps more knowledgeable folks will chime in.....

 

[greg the pole]

That really sounds like bad battery to me...

I know you said yo tried jumping it but it still seems like a weak battery....

Perhaps more knowledgeable folks will chime in.....

battery has a good charge. Left it on the trickle charger overnight, and it's showing 12.8V prior to starting attempt.
It's the OEM jobbie that came with the bike.
If it was a weak battery, and it was boosted off a stationary car, it should very least fire...

 

[offcamber]

Voltage without a load won't tell you much. I don't know who you connected your jump from the other vehicle so I can't speak to that. My experience with the S10 is if the battery goes a little weak it doesn't like to start.

That said check that the bike is getting spark....since you smell fuel I'll guess that's not the issue.

 

[greg the pole]

Voltage without a load won't tell you much. I don't know who you connected your jump from the other vehicle so I can't speak to that. My experience with the S10 is if the battery goes a little weak it doesn't like to start.

That said check that the bike is getting spark....since you smell fuel I'll guess that's not the issue.

definitely getting spark. my car is not running, just + to + - to -

i'll update the original post to include the above.
I appreciate the feedback

 

[Koinz]

So I'm supposed to be taking off on a 6 day trip today except my bike has decided it want to stay home instead.

It sounds exactly like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvMeUMgSwPQ

I've let It sit overnight tried:
-starting it the normal way (no throttle)
-tried wot
-tried the efi fuse
-pulled each plug out (soaked), cleaned them with a torch, and cleaned out the cylinders with compressed air.
-I do have spark on both cylinders
-Battery reads 12.8V

I smell nothing but gas coming out of the exhaust pipe....

still nothing, turns over lethargically pops once in a while, and ::010::

Battery is fine, boosting it off my car results in the same exact slow ass turning..and still nothing.

should I find a really really steep hill, get a run, dump it into second, and see if it goes? I'm out of ideas. :'(

Kindof surprised that you did all of that and it still didn't start. Probably has nothing to do with the non-start, but what viscosity oil are you using?
I have had issues with thick oil and trying to start in the Cold Winter Months, but not during the summer where ambient temperatures are 60+ degrees F.

 

[tc9988]

So I'm supposed to be taking off on a 6 day trip today except my bike has decided it want to stay home instead.

It sounds exactly like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvMeUMgSwPQ

I've let It sit overnight tried:
-starting it the normal way (no throttle)
-tried wot
-tried the efi fuse
-pulled each plug out (soaked), cleaned them with a torch, and cleaned out the cylinders with compressed air.
-I do have spark on both cylinders
-Battery reads 12.8V

I smell nothing but gas coming out of the exhaust pipe....

still nothing, turns over lethargically pops once in a while, and ::010::

Battery is fine, boosting it off my car results in the same exact slow ass turning..and still nothing.

should I find a really really steep hill, get a run, dump it into second, and see if it goes? I'm out of ideas. :'(

does it briefly fire with the efi fuse removed?

 

[Koinz]

Kill Switch off?

 

[greg the pole]

does it briefly fire with the efi fuse removed?

nothing at all

 

[greg the pole]

Kindof surprised that you did all of that and it still didn't start. Probably has nothing to do with the non-start, but what viscosity oil are you using?
I have had issues with thick oil and trying to start in the Cold Winter Months, but not during the summer where ambient temperatures are 60+ degrees F.

10 40
It's warm in the garage
And it's in the run position

 

[Derekj]

Could be numerous things. Clogged air filter, incorrect valve adjustments, breather hose, fuel pump / relay , throttle body could be loose and sucks in air. If you have spark, then I would concentrate on fuel and air. Also check that you have gas.

 

[scott123007]

Greg, I know you know as much about this bike as most everyone on this board, so it just makes me laugh harder at the morons that have always said this situation is operator error.
Having said that, it still baffles me as to why so many with this problem have such a reluctance to push start this bike. Regardless how flooded it is, it WILL start every time with a good push (just like every other flooded bike in the universe). I realize it is a bitch to do by yourself especially if you don't have a slightly downhill area at your disposal, but finding a little muscle nearby, even if you have to go pick up that someone up and take them back home, is a lot easier than farting around with that bike beyond pushing the starter button.

 

[Derekj]

I am just finishing up on a polaris ranger that had the exact symptoms and ended up being low compression. Rings were shot. Sott, I have wrenched on/off bikes for over 40 years and you will be surprised how many silly mistakes people make. Me included.

 

[greg the pole]

Update.

It's ALIVE!

Some background info I forgot to share, as I was besides myself...
On Thursday I installed a manual cct. Got it set just right (hand tight till you feel tension, then tighten down half turn and a back it out a quarter.)
Saturday I second guessed myself, and decided to double check the tension of the cct. big mistake, I backed it off too much as I was turning the motor by hand slowly, heard a clank
shiiit...
Pulled the cover.
checked clearences (all good) put it all back together...still nothing..wtf!

my buddy Richard was set to go on a week long ride, and was coming down regardless.. it just so happens that he's an excellent mc mechanic (a bit hung over this particular day, but an excellent mechanic never the less) we checked compression...nothing I mean zero! The leakdown test came back very good at about 10-15% loss of air...wtf!

We pulled the cover off (2nd time in 2 days) and found that both the cams were out roughly 3 teeth.
Pulled both cams (and while those were out made notches to match the marks on the side where you cannot see the marks ::010::
put it all back together, spun it twice, and actually felt compression out of the cylinders... both came back at about 75 psi, Yamaha calls for 95 psi but I'm not 100% sure how you can get an accurate reading with the decompression mechanism on the exhaust valve (PFM-Pure Fucking Magic)

buttoned it back up, and it fired on the first go.

so there you have it..operator error, at least I don't have to check my valves till 95 Km..

thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Koinz]

Yikes, warning for those contemplating manual chain tensioners. ???

Good u figured out what happened.

 

[tc9988]

Update.

It's ALIVE!

Some background info I forgot to share, as I was besides myself...
On Thursday I installed a manual cct. Got it set just right (hand tight till you feel tension, then tighten down half turn and a back it out a quarter.)
Saturday I second guessed myself, and decided to double check the tension of the cct. big mistake, I backed it off too much as I was turning the motor by hand slowly, heard a clank
shiiit...
Pulled the cover.
checked clearences (all good) put it all back together...still nothing..wtf!

my buddy Richard was set to go on a week long ride, and was coming down regardless.. it just so happens that he's an excellent mc mechanic (a bit hung over this particular day, but an excellent mechanic never the less) we checked compression...nothing I mean zero! The leakdown test came back very good at about 10-15% loss of air...wtf!

We pulled the cover off (2nd time in 2 days) and found that both the cams were out roughly 3 teeth.
Pulled both cams (and while those were out made notches to match the marks on the side where you cannot see the marks ::010::
put it all back together, spun it twice, and actually felt compression out of the cylinders... both came back at about 75 psi, Yamaha calls for 95 psi but I'm not 100% sure how you can get an accurate reading with the decompression mechanism on the exhaust valve (PFM-Pure smurfing Magic)

buttoned it back up, and it fired on the first go.

so there you have it..operator error, at least I don't have to check my valves till 95 Km..

thanks for the suggestions.

looks like Derekj was on the right track. Since low compression seems to be the culprit I was thinking maybe the auto decompression mechanism hanging up might be the cause of the hard start/no start episodes. That would explain why a no start bike will start with a bump start. A quick google search found this hmmmmm

http://www.ltr450hq.com/forums/problem-solved/41191-solved-random-loss-compression-no-start.html

http://youtu.be/vU0QPhhpJ-E

 

[Koinz]

looks like Derekj was on the right track. Since low compression seems to be the culprit I was thinking maybe the auto decompression mechanism hanging up might be the cause of the hard start/no start episodes. That would explain why a no start bike will start with a bump start. A quick google search found this hmmmmm

http://www.ltr450hq.com/forums/problem-solved/41191-solved-random-loss-compression-no-start.html

In this case it was valve timing was off by 3 teeth. Lucky it didn't bend the valves. ???

 

[longride]

"Greg, I know you know as much about this bike as most everyone on this board, so it just makes me laugh harder at the morons that have always said this situation is operator error."

I guess the morons are looking a bit brighter now?? ::025::

 

[scott123007]

"Greg, I know you know as much about this bike as most everyone on this board, so it just makes me laugh harder at the morons that have always said this situation is operator error."

I guess the morons are looking a bit brighter now?? ::025::

Yup, can't argue with you in this case :