HARD START

colorider

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Re: Very hard starting today

Tremor38 said:
1979 CX-500! I darn near drained the batttery in the middle of nowhere Tenesse before figuring out I had bumped the kill switch slightly off of the run position . ...dumb, dumb...dumb.
It's been a while, but I believe my 1978 GL1000 was the same way. ::026::
 

Dirt_Dad

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Re: Very hard starting today

Have to admit all my bikes of that vintage had a kick starter attached to them. My first electric starter was on my 2001 KLR 650.
 

dcstrom

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Re: Very hard starting today

Well just returned from two weeks vacation, went to start the S10 today. 36F according to the temp gauge. It hadn't been on a battery tender but seems to be plenty of life in the battery.

But the bloody thing wouldn't start...! It would show signs of life, but that's all. I was aware of the issues raised in this thread, but it definitely wasn't the case of having cycled the ignition several times and flooding it. When I tried the throttle WFO it seemed to catch more often, but not often enough to keep it running. I wish the bloody starter would crank a bit faster, seems like that could be part of the problem when starting is iffy.

Then I thought maybe it's not rich enough, so cycled a few times to replicate the "flooding" situation. No change. I gave up and rode the Strom to work. Grrrr...

Any ideas?

Trevor
 

colorider

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Re: Very hard starting today

Trevor, not sure where you live (you may want to add this to your profile), but wonder what kind of fuel you have where you are at and how long it has been in your tank. My bike has sat for 3 to 4 weeks and still started easily. I do keep a battery tender on at all times.
 

~TABASCO~

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Re: Very hard starting today

With our temps getting down to the high 30's and mid 40's my Batt is already acting wimpy.... What the heck.... I do keep it on the battery tender pretty often though... Never had a new bike with a new Batt act up so soon..... kinda strange...
 

dcstrom

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Re: Very hard starting today

ColoRider said:
Trevor, not sure where you live
Err... DC. Dcstrom, geddit? Clever eh? ;-) Will fix profile.


(you may want to add this to your profile), but wonder what kind of fuel you have where you are at and how long it has been in your tank. My bike has sat for 3 to 4 weeks and still started easily. I do keep a battery tender on at all times.
Fuel is a fresh tank of premium the week before I left. about 3/4 full.

Will try against tomorrow and if it doesn't go then I'll try charging the battery.
 

dcstrom

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Re: Very hard starting today

Ok now I'm officially annoyed... tried starting again, no go. Gave the battery a full charge, still nothing. Tried push starting (thinking it might spin the engine a bit faster than the starter - I don't think so) and still dead. It will fire occasionally, telling me that at least there is a spark, but nowhere near enough to get it running.

I'm hesitant to tear into it - for one I don't know what I'm looking for, and for another, it should be a warranty thing and the dealer should be looking at it.

On the other hand, it will be a huge PITA to get to the dealer (3 hours away if I want to use my preferred dealer), and I'd hate to do that and find there was something simple I could have done to get it going...

I guess I will look at the plug caps tomorrow - but I'm at a loss since it was running fine before I put it away, it hadn't been just washed or anything like that. It's been in a shed for a couple of weeks - that's it, should not be a big deal. No battery tender, but it hasn't been that long or that cold. Anyway with a full charge there's no difference.

Ideas - please....

Trevor
 

colorider

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Re: Very hard starting today

Trevor,
Have you tried opening the throttle all the way and cranking over the engine? It may take a bit, but sometimes this will do the trick if the engine is flooded for some reason.

Rod
 

rem

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Re: Very hard starting today

Did you happen to fill it with gas just before you took off on vacation?? I'm wondering if you got some bad gas or water in your gas ??? R
 

mykrysys

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Re: Very hard starting today


this kinda out there but... you mentioned "It's been in a shed for a couple of weeks"

getting cold and little furry things like to nest up...something crawl in your exhaust? air box ?
 

simmons1

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Re: Re: Very hard starting today

mykrysys said:
this kinda out there but... you mentioned "It's been in a shed for a couple of weeks"

getting cold and little furry things like to nest up...something crawl in your exhaust? air box ?
I was thinking the same thing!
 

GrahamD

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Re: Very hard starting today

What do you have in the way of tools etc.

Can you put it into service mode and check to see if have any fault codes?

If that is all clear...

Try it again, if nothing charge battery and another big battery (car battery)

Now this is sometimes seen as a big bad idea but done right it is OK. It's up to you, give it some thought first.

Option 1
So next thing to do is start with a big battery (Car battery not truck battery), make sure both batteries are charged and have similar voltages at rest, attached jumpers and crank. You shouldn't draw any sparks that way.

Don't dither on the battery connections or you will increase the chances of an ark. Firm positive connection on the main battery please.

Open the throttle wide open but don't open shut open shut.
If you do more than 30 seconds stop. and let it sit for a while.

If it fires and runs turn it off and disconnect big battery. You don't need the charge circuits seeing that big load for too long. I mean it's not going to draw 600watts but I don't know how they have implemented the charge circuits.

Option2
If Option 1 freaks you out, or too many people say that your bike is going to end up a melted pile of plastic etc remove plugs from the cylinder and let the chamber breath for a while, that way you can inspect thing for water, moisture etc.

Option 3
You could have some water in the tank, you can throw a cup of metho in there and that will help clear that out. It won't kill the bike. Too much panic about ethanol in this world. Anymore than 20% metho though and You should dump it and re-fill the tank.

Option 3. Get a can of "Start ya Bastard" and try that. I once had a car running on that for a few seconds until I realized that there wasn't actually a spark, because I forgot to turn on the hidden kill switch. ::010::

Option 4.

Flick that kill switch back and forth a few times. You never know. Might have some gunk in it, but the few photo's of the bike I have seen, probably a long shot.

See how you go.

It's up to you, I am just pumping out a few things I have done, without trouble.

Cheers
Graham
 

Combo

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Re: Very hard starting today

Mine has always turned over slow when starting, slower when cold, but has always started. It does not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling every time I start mine.

I hate to say this but I see trouble down the road with this. The starter does not seem strong enough for this motor. Something has not felt right about about it from the get go. ???

What do you guys think :question:
 

elizilla

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Re: Very hard starting today

Add my bike to the list suffering this problem.

I had it apart for almost two weeks, installing electrical farkles. I tested the individual items as I got them finished. I only fired the bike up once during the testing, because I was running my garage furnace and I didn't want to open it and let all the heat out. But I had to fire it up to test the Flash2Pass garage door remote, because it runs off the high beam circuit, and the headlights won't come on unless the bike is running, and also, of course, the test entailed opening the door. :) The Flass2Pass worked, and I shut the bike off with the key. Over the next few days, I turned the key on and off a number of times to test various other things, but I didn't start it again. Finally I got to the Denalis, which are switched off the high beams as well, so I needed to fire the bike up to try them. And it wouldn't start. It only cranked normally for a half dozen tries before the cranking got extremely weak. My voltmeter agreed - battery very sad. I put it on the tender to charge it back up and the tender agreed with the voltmeter.

I wait until the battery tender says the battery is charged. But it cranks down to nothing within a few seconds when I try to start the bike, and plugging the tender back in shows it is in a discharged state. After two or three tries, maybe twenty or thirty seconds of cranking total, it takes three or four hours to charge it back up again, and when I try to start it again, same thing.

And the bike smells like it is flooded.

If there's one thing I have learned from my years in tech support, it is to ask "What's changed?" So I disconnected all the accessory wiring, even the relay connected to the high beams. There's nothing of mine currently connected. I checked the stock fuses, too - all good. Still no joy.

It seems odd to me that the battery cranks down to nothing in ten seconds of cranking. I can't think of any possible accessory wiring error that could make a battery go dead so quickly, especially with all the accessories now disconnected. So I am wondering if I have a case of sudden Yuasa death syndrome here? Perhaps the battery was weak to begin with, and turning the key on and off a couple dozen times, then trying to start a flooded bike, has pushed it over the edge? I do not believe I could have fried anything with my accessory wiring - this is not my first rodeo, and accessory wiring is just not that hard. And I haven't connected to anything in the stock system, except the two battery terminals, one posi-tap on the high beam wire, and a connector from Eastern Beaver that lets me draw switched power from the stock grip heater plug.

And no, SisuTen, I do not think solder would solve this issue. :p

I'm thinking the next step is going to be to jumpstart it from the NT. If I have to buy a new battery, it's not the end of the world. But I'd rather not buy one if it's not what I need.

In other news, my dealer called today and asked when I want to bring it in for the recall. I didn't admit I can't start it, but I said "not today". :) He said of course not, they haven't got the parts for me yet, and perhaps I'll bring it in the spring? I said no, order the parts now, I'll get it up there in the next few weeks. If I decide the battery is faulty I might try to get them to replace it while they're doing the recall.
 

GrahamD

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Re: Very hard starting today

Combo said:
What do you guys think :question:
1) I think once you don't trust the bike to start, then it's a bit of a slippery slope.
2) It has happened intermittently and may have nothing to do with the slow turnover.
3) The battery may be a bit underspecified, but I don't know how long the thing cranks for.
4) There is no data I have seen on crank voltage etc. It's all subjective to date. And no definitive reason has been found for the issues.

It could be different issues each time. There could be a small drain in the battery, much like Duacti's tend to do, It could be water in fuel, plugs, whatever.

Unless each occurrence has a definitive answer, you can;t say for sure.

Flooding seems to be the most reason given that I have read. I don't touch throttles when I start an EFI bike. Pull clutch hit starter, that's it. Always works.

Maybe I'll never have an issue. Maybe the start speed is a bit marginal but who knows. How fast does a geared starter on a 5Litre V8 turn over?

600cc per cylinder, is not small.

Too many question sand no answers.

And of course elizilla chimes in before I hit post, with another hint for the flooding. :D

Yuasa, are a good battery, although I have never used the glass mat versions, I don't think. Maybe a LiPo battery would be a better bet.

This mob are adamant that the batteries are drop in replacements..

Might be worth a word to them. http://www.shoraipower.com/default.aspx

I have seen an engineer from that company on a forum trying to explain to the skeptics over about 30 posts that they would be fine.

I'll see if I can track it down.
 

jajpko

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Re: Very hard starting today

Combo said:
Mine has always turned over slow when starting, slower when cold, but has always started. It does not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling every time I start mine.

I hate to say this but I see trouble down the road with this. The starter does not seem strong enough for this motor. Something has not felt right about about it from the get go. ???

What do you guys think :question:
I noticed on the demo ride, the engine was slow to turn over, but chalked it up to not putting the bikes on a tender.
Mine has had a slow turn over more than once, but never refused to start. I do keep mine on a tender.
Even with the electrical installs I've done, I have not had trouble.

There are too many of these type complaints to just write them off. If I do have problems, I may try a Shori battery.
 

JohnB

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Re: Very hard starting today

I haven't had this problem yet although I must admit the engine turnover is slow. If I had to replace the battery, it would be with something offering more cranking amps, maybe a Shorai. One thing for sure is that I'll be putting in 10W-40 synthetic for the colder months. I'm not sure what comes from the factory, but if it's 20W-50, it can't be helping turn those big-ass pistons much.
 

Combo

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Re: Very hard starting today

Graham I have seen 5 different Big XT's start and all are not strong when starting. The other 4 are just like mine when starting. We may have a under sized battery or a weak starter. No matter which or a different problem, I think this is going to be a bigger issue. I am wishing that it is bad or undersized factory battery. If it is under sized batteries it is sucking the normal life out of our starters.

Something is not right for sure.
 

GrahamD

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Re: Very hard starting today

You keep misreading what I am saying...

No one has come up with any data.

Voltage while cranking,
Voltage on battery after sitting for a while?
Drain rate while standing?

Was the throttle twisted when starting of left alone?

Voltage across live starter lead, when cranking?

This may lead to answers about whether it is
Battery, starter lead drops, connections, starter or a Combo? (Sorry Combo)

To answer the question about what is causing the slow cranking and or low battery life.

I'm an old skool engineer, and I don't like swapping expensive things. selling bikes etc if I am just going by a hunch.

Hunches are there to test against. That is all.

It's YAMAHA's problem after all, but at least if you have some data you can ask the "Techs" Why Why Why.

Make sure the stealers know oif your concerns.

Or someone come over for a shed day and I will measure measure measure against the Strom and the Viagra and an Aprillia and a R1200RT.
 
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