Fuel additives

cjclint

New Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
9
Location
willow springs mo
Re: Seafoam.....blaaaa

Have not needed it on my Tenere but had good results using seafoam on my goldwings. Have tried a couple of other brands with little success.
 

Don in Lodi

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
5,780
Location
Lodi Kalifornia
Re: Seafoam.....blaaaa

That would have worked well on the direct injection injector I replaced today. P0303 misfire code.
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,489
Location
Damascus, MD
Re: Seafoam.....blaaaa

ace50 - Hope you don't mind that I changed the thread title to be about more than just Seafoam.


While carbon build-up is bad and cleaning it out is a positive, to me, most of the other videos are absolutely worthless. What we actually have problems with are the near-black tar-like residue which builds in the injectors, not the baked on hard carbon deposits in the piston chamber. Further, they bill their videos as fuel system cleaner comparisons, but only talk about carbon deposits on the piston head and valves. And even then, most are non-scientifically just trying them on a lawnmower or in their driveway.

Worthless!

My Dad introduced me to Seafoam when we'd work on outboard motors and I was a kid. I moved away from Seafoam after seeing the following video, looking up the actual papers myself, and then talking to a chemist about the PEA and papers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eqpczQpzig
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eqpczQpzig

I'll post this while I dig up the spreadsheet I did when comparing products.


An important comment in the video and from the one paper is that carbon buildups tend to stabilize at about 10,000 miles. After that, they stay about the same as the engine miles accumulate. No additive or cleaning for carbon deposits is needed!
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,489
Location
Damascus, MD
MSDS Sheets contain the best available descriptions of what are in these products. The descriptions are worded very loosely and Chevron goes so far as to say "trade secret" but these are the best non-proprietary info that exists. Further, there can be more than one MSDS for a product and they may not say the same thing. Sorta like one will say small dog and another will say puppy for the same pet.


Sources for comparison:
Berryman B12 https://www.berrymanproducts.com/assets/3A-5M-0112-1112-1165.pdf
Gumout https://gumout.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/510021-800001373-Gumout-Fuel-Injector-Carburetor-Cleaner.pdf
Lucas https://lucasoil.com/pdf/SDS_Deep-Clean-Fuel-System-Cleaner.pdf
Marvel Mystery Oil http://www.audiosears.com/MSDS/FS0433-Marvel%20-%20Marvel%20Mystery%20Oil.pdf

Royal Purple Max-Clean https://media.napaonline.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1582082pdf?$PDF$
Seafoam http://www.sueschauls.com/Seafoam_motor_treatment.pdf
STP http://www.stp.com/sites/default/files/STP%20Super%20Concentrated%20Fuel%20Injector%20Cleaner%20%282015-02%29.pdf
Techron gasoline fuel additive CPS266368 http://ilrc.ucf.edu/documents/ILRC%2000000589/NCFS_589%20Chevron%20Techron%20Concentrate%20Plus%20Fuel%20System%20Clean.pdf
Techron Fuel additive 266349 http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/2050193pdf?$PDF$
Wynn's https://www.conncoll.edu/media/website-media/offices/ehs/envhealthdocs/Wynns_Fuel_Injector_Cleaner.pdf


Here's the spreadsheet listing what they each show:



The Isopropanol in Berryman and Seafoam make sense for when we were working with outboard motors, as the alcohol will pick up any water and help move it through the system. So for what we were doing, Dad was pretty sharp after all!


When I made the list, I didn't think to add Yamaha's Engine Med RX, which the factory folks said that they found helped with hard starts. I've been using it every few tanks in the Super Tenere and here's what is listed for it:
>90% Heavy naptha
3-5% Proprietary deposit control additive
2-5% Solvent naptha
1-2% Proprietary Corrosion inhibitor
0.1-0.3% Heavy Aromatic Naptha
0.6-1% Proprietary Amine substituted resin
0.01-0.03% Napthalene
0.01-0.03% 1,2,4-trimethylbenzine


The lists clearly show that most of these are largely just various types of petroleum solvents. Note that the generic "petroleum distillate" could include a number of the things lower in the list.


I am certainly no chemist and will defer to them, but as I understand from the papers cited in the video and elsewhere, the additive which seems to clean best is the polyether amine, listed about half-way down the spreadsheet. The amine listed next is supposed to have similar chemical properties and the Techron "Trade secret" is supposed to also be in this family. So if we exclude the products without this additive and list in order we get:


10-30% Lucas
5-15% Royal Purple
3-7% Techron 266349
1-5% Techron CPS 266368

1-5% STP
0.6-1% Proprietary Amine substituted resin (Not sure if Yamaha's product should be in this group)
0.1-1% Gumout


This and low cost are why I've changed the additive for our old Subaru Forester to Lucas, to prevent fuel injector buildups, but I'd have no problem using Royal Purple or the second version of Techron.


Looking forward to hearing if we have a chemist in the group.
 

WJBertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
4,516
Location
Ventura, CA
I've been dumping half a bottle of Techron in the tank when I think about it, probably no more than every 5-10K miles. Using it as a preventative mode rather than remedial. As a result I didn't expect to notice any changes in performance and indeed I haven't. I guess it's just a warm and fuzzy for me...
 

jbrown

Active Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
373
Location
Novato, CA
I've used a napa product to clean injectors after removing them from a vehicle. Just ran the stuff through under pressure while operating the injector with a battery. It definitely cleaned crud from the injectors and improved the spray pattern. The product safety data sheet shows it is mostly xylene, with some isopropyl alcohol and some "2Pentanone, 4hydroxy4methyl", whatever that is. It seems like the best cleaners would mess up the fuel mixture if used in high enough concentrations to really clean things up. Periodic removal and cleaning might be the best way to keep injectors clean.
 
R

RonH

Guest
Probably just an unrelated thing, but I'm still leary of fuel additives. Wife had a 2008 Jeep, I added techtron to the fuel every 5,000 miles. All of a sudden, 1 injector failed, we were on 5 cylinders. Had that replaced, about 1,000 miles later another injector failed exact same way, 1,000 miles or so later another one. Finally another one failed. The Jeep only had 40,000 miles on it. She got a new 2014 Jeep and I won't be adding Techtron to it. Almost up to same mileage the 08 went to crap. I have to wonder. I think I'll just drive and not use any additive.
 

2daMax

Active Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
675
Location
Penang, Malaysia
Thank you Checkwrecks for the list. I was just looking into Seafoam and MMO, as lately I inspected my intake valves (via the TB) and Piston heads (via the plug holes) using an endoscope I borrowed from a friend. I see some carbon deposits on the intake valves and quite a bit more on the piston heads.

Your highlight on polyether amines struck me as I just viewed the MSDS for a TCW3 2 stroke Marine Outboard watercooled oil, which contains ethylene amines.....not sure if they are the same.

http://www.kelloggmarine.com/msds/MER%20-%20Quicksilver/Premium%202%20Cycle%20TC-W3%20Outboard%20Oil.pdf

I have been hearing on usage of TCW3 as additives in the ratio of 500:1 and supposedly gave better mileage and smoother engine, after the 2nd treatment. However, I could not find information about carbon cleaning, except for a lawnmover overhaul that shows a very clean engine parts. I could not find this lawn mover info anymore. The advantage of TCW3 is cost.

Since I have access to a endoscope and have just purchased on-line an Android compatible endoscope for US4.00, I will be embarking on a experiment with TCW3 w.r.t carbon deposits at the intake valves and piston. I already have my baseline deposits as reference, and will use TCW3 for at least 4 tanks of fuel before inspecting again. I hope the answers will be positive because this will be the most cost effective solution.

The arguments against using 2 stroke oil has its merits but the happy users are saying that the formulation for TCW3 is ashless unlike the regular 2T oil, and since it is used for watercooled engines in marine applications, it is likely to be compatible to be used for vehicle engines (which are also watercooled). The experiment will tell if it works or not.
 

Checkswrecks

Ungenear to broked stuff
Staff member
Global Moderator
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
11,489
Location
Damascus, MD
jbrown said:
I've used a napa product to clean injectors after removing them from a vehicle. Just ran the stuff through under pressure while operating the injector with a battery. It definitely cleaned crud from the injectors and improved the spray pattern. The product safety data sheet shows it is mostly xylene, with some isopropyl alcohol and some "2Pentanone, 4hydroxy4methyl", whatever that is. It seems like the best cleaners would mess up the fuel mixture if used in high enough concentrations to really clean things up. Periodic removal and cleaning might be the best way to keep injectors clean.
Good point to bring up about cleaning injectors after removing them from the bike or car. I've found nothing that works better than the spray cleaner for Mass Air Flow sensors like below. Being made for MAF means it is safe for plastics and the same materials that the injectors are made of.


There are a number of YouTube videos about how to do this with a 9V battery. I've found that soaking for a half hour before cleaning really makes a difference.
 

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
14,812
Location
Joshua TX
RonH said:
Probably just an unrelated thing, but I'm still leary of fuel additives.

When I bought my '13 Wrangler, the parts guy told me "whatever you do, don't use any fuel additives". So I haven't. But, back when I did, I put the additive/cleaner in two tanks before I changed the oil. As it was explained to me, the debris that is "cleaned" from the engine, ends up in the oil. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Either way it was fresh oil in a clean motor.
 

Wallkeeper

Paid Observer of drying paint and curing powder
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
1,158
Location
Minneapolis
jbrown said:
I've used a napa product to clean injectors after removing them from a vehicle. Just ran the stuff through under pressure while operating the injector with a battery. It definitely cleaned crud from the injectors and improved the spray pattern. The product safety data sheet shows it is mostly xylene, with some isopropyl alcohol and some "2Pentanone, 4hydroxy4methyl", whatever that is. It seems like the best cleaners would mess up the fuel mixture if used in high enough concentrations to really clean things up. Periodic removal and cleaning might be the best way to keep injectors clean.
Pentanone is a ketone like MEK, Acetone or MIBK. I have only ever seen it used in some arcane emulsion breaker formulas. I have no idea what benefit it would have over MEK or MIBK for cleaning...

I have 2 rice burner cars with over 150K miles each and have never used any additives. We have had other issues but Injectors are not not on the list. I think I would be more concerned if we lived in countries where the consistency of the fuel supply was of concern.

Final thought, for years I had access to Xylene and routinely had 2-4 gallons in the car. There were occasions we had to run it in the car to make it back out to the road. Never a problem so for years I ran it in my lawn equipment and motorcycle (it was effectively free ::012::) When I pulled the plugs and heads they looked like new.
 

ace50

Active Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Messages
640
Location
VA
I usually buy Lucas by the gallon and use it in everything I own.
Mainly because of the lubrication it offers the intake system, as gas is so 'dry'.
I use to use MMO for that but you get the added benefit of cleaning with Lucas.
Most strong cleaners are a once in a while usage.
Lucas you can use all the time which tells me it's pretty safe too.
 

Attachments

Cycledude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2016
Messages
3,998
Location
Rib lake wi
ace50 said:
I usually buy Lucas by the gallon and use it in everything I own.
Mainly because of the lubrication it offers the intake system, as gas is so 'dry'.
I use to use MMO for that but you get the added benefit of cleaning with Lucas.
Most strong cleaners are a once in a while usage.
Lucas you can use all the time which tells me it's pretty safe too.
MMO-Marvel Mystery Oil is also a cleaner.
 

2daMax

Active Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
675
Location
Penang, Malaysia
TCW3 does not clean carbon deposits from intake valves and piston head. After 2 tankful of 500:1 mixture, observed that the deposits on the intake valves have increase a little while the deposits on the piston head remains the same. MMO next.
 

taskmaster86

Active Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
331
Location
South Eastern, CT
2daMax said:
TCW3 does not clean carbon deposits from intake valves and piston head. After 2 tankful of 500:1 mixture, observed that the deposits on the intake valves have increase a little while the deposits on the piston head remains the same. MMO next.
I will be following your posts about this. Do you have any before and after pictures?
 
Top