Front End Bounce / Hop

WJBertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
4,516
Location
Ventura, CA
Also ,slightly off topic, could you elaborate on the law about not being able to work on your own vehicle. Sounds so unbelievable to us do it yourselfers..thanks
This is something going on in California too, so far it seems to be a local city/county thing. I think these laws are backed by the repair shops and some politicians have jumped on it under the guise of environmental concerns. I think it's complete BS and if it comes to my city, I plan to roundly ignore them. I'll just have to work with the garage door closed. I have an air compressor, pneumatic wrenches, a hydraulic Quick Jack lift and a manual tire changer, among other specialized automotive tools, that would be outlawed. My neighbors won't fink on my because I've helped do or have completely done plenty of repairs and trouble shooting on all of their cars too.

 

Don in Lodi

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
5,780
Location
Lodi Kalifornia
Bouncing, hopping, slow speed coast with no engine input... My bet is on a tire, prolly the rear. The forks shouldn't give any random output without some sort of input. My weird front fork hop/wiggle was caused by a slipped belt on a rear tire, last 5-10% of the tire life. I don't use that brand any more.
 

Doodlefadd

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
35
Location
Singapore
Bouncing, hopping, slow speed coast with no engine input... My bet is on a tire, prolly the rear. The forks shouldn't give any random output without some sort of input. My weird front fork hop/wiggle was caused by a slipped belt on a rear tire, last 5-10% of the tire life. I don't use that brand any more.
Says he changed tires, if he got a bad tire after everything he has already done that would really be a kick in the teeth.
I've told my mechanic to keep a look out for anyone swapping out their old usable tyres that fits our bike, so that I can have it fixed for a quick ride and rule out tyres.

There were mixed reviews about these mitas terraforce that I'm having. Some swear by it others says it's too hard it causes bounces, some love it when it's hot and grippy, others says it slides around.
Whichever it is, at the point of tyre change, tyres were out of stock island wide. The only ones available are knobbies and I don't do offroading at all with these covid closing all borders around my nation (there isn't any legal local off roads. Its a city state. Like new York?)

But yea, they're brand new, manufactured July 20.
If they truly are out of roundness, of which we can't detect by eye after inspection, it's seriously a bummer.

I'm taking a breather from this issue, ain't gonna do the forks anytime soon. Gonna put the bike aside, till I've recovered from the expenses from the many trials and failures of this issue.

Will update again!
 

Doodlefadd

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
35
Location
Singapore
Dropped by the store that did my forks, asked to be explained what went down with the fork rebuild. Was verbally told without any pictorial evidence,
-all seals changed.
-copper bushings still looks good
-5w oil used
-165mm air gap at the top
-unable to remember quantity of oil put in.

Correct me if im wrong, but FSM says 150mm air gap yea for stock rebuild?
165mm = more air gap aka less oil?
Would less oil cause stiction between fork legs and bring about the binding of the forks and eventually the hops/bounce at operational speed?

I'm about to order a fork repair kit from off-the-road.
Includes seals, clips, bushings.


While I'm at it, would you guys recommend changing out the springs too?
I get my sag spot on at 57mm with 3 lines of preload up front. But would have to max preload with a pax.
If yes, anyone out there have a table for reference, or a reliable spring calculator they've used before for purchases?

Bouncing, hopping, slow speed coast with no engine input... My bet is on a tire, prolly the rear. The forks shouldn't give any random output without some sort of input. My weird front fork hop/wiggle was caused by a slipped belt on a rear tire, last 5-10% of the tire life. I don't use that brand any more.
Bigger question :

How do we check front to rear wheel alignment on our s10? And what contributes to it? Yea.. I wanna rule this out too, while I don't think it contributes to the hop/bounce, since imma be touching on my forks and tyres, and prolly get the spokes trued again, I might as well check on these, and if they are bad, I wanna know how to realign my wheels.
 
B

ballisticexchris

Guest
This is something going on in California too, so far it seems to be a local city/county thing. I think these laws are backed by the repair shops and some politicians have jumped on it under the guise of environmental concerns. I think it's complete BS and if it comes to my city, I plan to roundly ignore them. I'll just have to work with the garage door closed. I have an air compressor, pneumatic wrenches, a hydraulic Quick Jack lift and a manual tire changer, among other specialized automotive tools, that would be outlawed. My neighbors won't fink on my because I've helped do or have completely done plenty of repairs and trouble shooting on all of their cars too.

I'm with you Jeff. Household tools!! LOL What are those.

Unfortunately it's getting harder to do much of anything that requires electronic diagnostic and repairs due the the inability to get the tools to do the job. When you do find the tool it ends up being cost prohibitive.


How do we check front to rear wheel alignment on our s10?

String line.
 

Doodlefadd

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
35
Location
Singapore
String line.
unnamed (1).jpg

Like this?
Got it from : https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/how-to/how-to-check-front-and-rear-motorcycle-wheel-alignment-mc-garage-tech-tips/

Are the steps listed here a good way to correct misalignment tho?

Maybe there is a slight misalignment between the axle/wheel/disk assembly to the brake axis. I get it on the front wheel if it wasn't aligned correctly. The disks heats up more than normal if the alignment is slightly off and takes a hit on fuel consumption. I dun fully understand the rear axle on how it is mounted but if it anywhere the same as the front axle, then it could be misalignment (slight).

The front axle is screwed tight onto the left fork while the right fork, it simply floats or slides over the axle. The 2 clamp bolts on the right fork simply locks the floating axle and keeps its position. After a tire change, I did noticed there was more drag and the disk heats up more. After some research, it was recommended to do the following to get the alignment of the disks to the brake caliper:

1. Loosen Fender bolts, 2 Clamp bolts.
2. Bike on center stand.
3. Get on the bike and push down on the handle bar while holding the brake lever a few times.
4. While keeping the brake lever held down, tighten up the 2 clamp bolts.
5. Then release the front brakes, and then tighten up the fender bolts.

if this still doesn't do well, then add in loosening up the lower triple bolts (4X) in Step 1. And in Step 4, add in tightening up the lower triple bolts after the 2 clamp bolts. I gained 1.7 km/l by just doing this.

Now, for the rear, if it works on a floating axle over the right side swing arm, where the clamp bolt is, then I suppose loosening up the clamp bolt, then hold the rear brake in lock position, tap on the rear tires a few times to loosen up, then tighten up the lock bolts would get the alignment back in. (Bike on double stand).

Another potential source could be sticking piston on the rear caliper. Have the piston removed, the cylinder walls inspected and cleaned then lubed with brake fluid. Then replaced with new fluids. I haven't done on any of my brake calipers but did it on the clutch slave. Cleaning it and lube improves the clutch effort on the left hand.
FYI,
Forks: just placed orders for the fork repair kit.
Geometry: Gonna check for alignment and correct it at next few working days.
Tyres : No good pair of 2nd hand tyres to try thus far, gotta wait it out.

I sure do hope this thread serves well to anyone out there with potentially the same issue
 

holligl

Find the road less traveled...
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Messages
2,212
Location
IL/AZ
Dropped by the store that did my forks, asked to be explained what went down with the fork rebuild. Was verbally told without any pictorial evidence,
-all seals changed.
-copper bushings still looks good
-5w oil used
-165mm air gap at the top
-unable to remember quantity of oil put in.

Correct me if im wrong, but FSM says 150mm air gap yea for stock rebuild?
165mm = more air gap aka less oil?
Would less oil cause stiction between fork legs and bring about the binding of the forks and eventually the hops/bounce at operational speed?

I'm about to order a fork repair kit from off-the-road.
Includes seals, clips, bushings.


While I'm at it, would you guys recommend changing out the springs too?
I get my sag spot on at 57mm with 3 lines of preload up front. But would have to max preload with a pax.
If yes, anyone out there have a table for reference, or a reliable spring calculator they've used before for purchases?



Bigger question :

How do we check front to rear wheel alignment on our s10? And what contributes to it? Yea.. I wanna rule this out too, while I don't think it contributes to the hop/bounce, since imma be touching on my forks and tyres, and prolly get the spokes trued again, I might as well check on these, and if they are bad, I wanna know how to realign my wheels.
The even bigger question is how do you adjust it?
 
B

ballisticexchris

Guest
The even bigger question is how do you adjust it?
On the Super Tenere you have to do it on the front end. The shaft is not like a chain driven bike where you can adjust the wheel for perfect alignment. It's one of the many disadvantages of the shaft drive system.
 

holligl

Find the road less traveled...
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Messages
2,212
Location
IL/AZ
On the Super Tenere you have to do it on the front end. The shaft is not like a chain driven bike where you can adjust the wheel for perfect alignment. It's one of the many disadvantages of the shaft drive system.
That was my attempt at humor...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

Don in Lodi

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
5,780
Location
Lodi Kalifornia
Alignment on a shaft drive, I don't believe it's an issue, the front wheel points in the same direction as the rear to go straight down the road. True, the rear wheel may not be pointed at the front wheel on center, but everything is still parallel. The adjustable alignment on the chain drive prevents gear and chain wear and possible catastrophic derailment of the chain. But that's not even a wheel align really, it's an alignment with the countershaft sprocket, may still not point at the front tire center. Kinda like the string picture you can cinch a straight rod of some sort to the side(s) of the rear wheel and see where the front wheel lands in that box. It may tell you if your frame is twisted or some such, but it's not something you can generally do anything about.
 

Doodlefadd

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
35
Location
Singapore
Issue update :

Decided to change tyres.
Took out the Mitas Terraforce-R, installed Shinko e705 (which was half the price of the mitas btw)

Problem is ALMOST solved.
No more pronounced bounce at both slow or high speed, only occasionally. I'd say problem solved 90%.

Am waiting for new fork service kit on its way via shipping. Once arrived, let's see if a fork reservice solves this.

BTW, above suggested solution (both tyres & fork reservice) was adviced by a local mechanic recommended by many. Whom when shared about the problem via call, without asking what tyres I was running, could identify I was on mitas.

This post serves as an update of the issue for any that are following,
And also an enquiry to all if im just an unlucky Puck or mitas are giving issues.
Seems like when I talked to other shops, it's a common consensus amongst them that mitas creates this bounce/hop issue to many of their customers too.

What a bummer. Could have mitigated so much spending with just a tyre swap lols I'm sucha joke.
 

StefanOnHisS10

Converting fuel into heat, noise and a bit motion
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Apr 8, 2020
Messages
2,158
Location
The Netherlands, Friesland.
Good for you that it looks like you’re problems will be over soon. Now you mention it: when my much more aggressive E07+ was new I could feel the tire rolling from one knob to another. It created a slight hop when going real slow. Just like a full-knobby dirtbike on the street. Once the edges of the knobs were worn a bit it was gone. I never saw it as a problem, just part of a new “aggressive” tire. I love my E07+.

Now you can go and enjoy the riding, have fun!

Stefan
 

cyclemike4

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
815
Location
ky
Issue update :

Decided to change tyres.
Took out the Mitas Terraforce-R, installed Shinko e705 (which was half the price of the mitas btw)

Problem is ALMOST solved.
No more pronounced bounce at both slow or high speed, only occasionally. I'd say problem solved 90%.

Am waiting for new fork service kit on its way via shipping. Once arrived, let's see if a fork reservice solves this.

BTW, above suggested solution (both tyres & fork reservice) was adviced by a local mechanic recommended by many. Whom when shared about the problem via call, without asking what tyres I was running, could identify I was on mitas.

This post serves as an update of the issue for any that are following,
And also an enquiry to all if im just an unlucky Puck or mitas are giving issues.
Seems like when I talked to other shops, it's a common consensus amongst them that mitas creates this bounce/hop issue to many of their customers too.

What a bummer. Could have mitigated so much spending with just a tyre swap lols I'm sucha joke.
Just something to think about the front bounce that I was dealing with was with a Mitas E07 also. I have had two on there that gave me trouble. One I am pretty sure one was due to being stored incorrectly. the other I can't see any thing wrong with the tire but it just would not roll with out that dreaded hop to it. On the same token I have had Mitas E07 that were nothing but perfect and such a joy to ride on. I have never had an issue with the rear tires. One thing I have noticed as I have mentioned some where in this thread is my bike doesn't like heavy tires on the front. I have had issues with Shinko's bouncing too. that was after interstate runs of 2000 to 3000 miles. for the most part I could rebalance them and get that mostly out. By the way no weights fell off from the first balance either. Just something to think about and add a bit more of confusion in the mix. haha.
 

scott123007

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2012
Messages
1,462
Location
Jupiter, Florida
I am going to admit right now that I didn't read everyone's post, but one way or the other, your problem is the TIRES. You never mentioned what kind of tires you installed but some just do that. BICYCLES don't have suspension, and they don't have that problem. If a lot of your riding is at the speed you are complaining about, and is a big annoyance to you, install some Michelin Pilot 5's, make sure they are balanced (although that has nothing to do with low speed) and come back to us.
 
Last edited:

Doodlefadd

Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
35
Location
Singapore
Good for you that it looks like you’re problems will be over soon. Now you mention it: when my much more aggressive E07+ was new I could feel the tire rolling from one knob to another. It created a slight hop when going real slow. Just like a full-knobby dirtbike on the street. Once the edges of the knobs were worn a bit it was gone. I never saw it as a problem, just part of a new “aggressive” tire. I love my E07+.

Now you can go and enjoy the riding, have fun!

Stefan
Funny enough, the new shinko e705 has a more off road thread than the mitas Terraforce-R.
They're rated 80/20 as compared to mitas 90/10.
But definitely less bounce. Yes they vibrate. And sing loud on high speeds. But that's expected.

Just something to think about the front bounce that I was dealing with was with a Mitas E07 also. I have had two on there that gave me trouble. One I am pretty sure one was due to being stored incorrectly. the other I can't see any thing wrong with the tire but it just would not roll with out that dreaded hop to it. On the same token I have had Mitas E07 that were nothing but perfect and such a joy to ride on. I have never had an issue with the rear tires. One thing I have noticed as I have mentioned some where in this thread is my bike doesn't like heavy tires on the front. I have had issues with Shinko's bouncing too. that was after interstate runs of 2000 to 3000 miles. for the most part I could rebalance them and get that mostly out. By the way no weights fell off from the first balance either. Just something to think about and add a bit more of confusion in the mix. haha.
Hahaha I ain't blaming any manufacturer in any way.
I've had both super good and super bad reviews from friends and shops alike, for both the mitas terraforce and the new shinko e705.
The Internet says the same too
I'm just saying, the change in the tyre, helped alot.
If u ask me to guess, prolly a bad batch of tyres or bad storage like yours?
But yea, whatever it is, everyone who has heard of my issue in depth finds it confusing too.

I am going to admit right now that I didn't read everyone's post, but one way or the other, your problem is the TIRES. You never mentioned what kind of tires you installed but some just do that. BICYCLES don't have suspension, and they don't have that problem. If a lot of your riding is at the speed you are complaining about, and is a big annoyance to you, install some Michelin Pilot 5's, make sure they are balanced (although that has nothing to do with low speed) and come back to us.
Motorcycle tyres.
Swapped out : mitas terraforce-r
Installed new : shinko e705

Balanced and rebalanced and rebalanced.

Pilot road 5 not available in my country for our size.
Best road only tyre I can get here are Battlax ax41 or the conti-trail attacks.

Hope u understand my restraints and with these restraints, the issue was once absent.
 

KGaron

Active Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
47
Location
South East Louisiana. In da swamp Cha
I know this is an old thread but I’m a new member...lol
If you are still having stiction issues, understand that there is a proper way to remount your front wheel, brakes and even forks in the triple clamps. I’ve had customer bikes in the past with stiction issues as bad as yours and with the proper procedure of loosening and re-torquing everything in the proper order, I was able reduce stiction dramatically.
 
Top