Front brake doesn’t feel right since changing front tire

Wheelin

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I do typically remove both calipers when pulling a wheel. It's just not that hard to do.
I followed a YouTube video post on the forum that had the narrator only removing the right caliper. It appealed to me, because I'm lazy and also admittedly a little insecure and don't want to screw around with the bike components any more than I have to.
 

bigbob

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What I really wish is that I could get one of you guys to ride my bike and give me your impressions!
Could you update your profile with city and state? If you are an hour or two away might be possible!
 

Squibb

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So does that mean I would need to take my bike to professional garage, because that's what the pictures look like. (You're probably accurately guessing that I'm new to this stuff.)
Yes, a service bay, with something like this available ........... https://www.cryptontechnology.com/garage-equipment/automated-brake-testers/brake-tester
Ideally they will have a motorcycle adaptor, but this is not essential. I realise everything in CA seems to revolve around smog regs, but surely one of the auto brake specialists in Irvine must have some rollers. Bike dealers even?
 

EricV

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Yes, a service bay, with something like this available ........... https://www.cryptontechnology.com/garage-equipment/automated-brake-testers/brake-tester
Ideally they will have a motorcycle adaptor, but this is not essential. I realise everything in CA seems to revolve around smog regs, but surely one of the auto brake specialists in Irvine must have some rollers. Bike dealers even?
Not very common in the US. We don't have MOT and most of the states that do testing beyond emissions are pretty basic. Lights, horn, exhaust noise. No function testing of brakes. He would have to locate a specialty shop and the only shops I've seen with rollers at all are speedometer repair shops. I haven't noticed one that did brake testing, but that's not to say they don't exist. I lived in Irvine for a few years back in the early '80's. It's all about smog testing there.
 

Wheelin

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Howdy all-

I apologize for not updating you all further, but I have determined that the front right brake caliper piston is sticking, and that’s the reason for why the brake doesn’t “feel right“. I tried disconnecting that brake caliper and, following the instructions in the repair manual, squeezed the pistons in after releasing the bleeder valve and then reinstalling the brake pads. It didn’t seem to fix the problem (ie the brake pistons keep sticking).

Do I need to replace the brake pistons, or is there a way to safely lubricate them?
 

EricV

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Good job on narrowing down the cause of what you feel.

Brake pistons can stick for different reasons. One is simply a build up of dirt, brake dust, etc around the piston. Pushing it out some, (not all the way), and cleaning it with some brake cleaner and a toothbrush will often do wonders. This is normal maintenance when changing brake pads.

It is also possible for a ring of corrosion to develop. Especially when brake fluid has not been changed every 2 years or so and becomes contaminated with water. Brake fluid absorbs water moisture, so it's not obvious like oil and water would be. Sometimes the corrosion can be cleaned off.

The seals can be damaged too. Brake fluid is the best lubricant for brake pistons. Typically when you re-build the caliper and replace the seals, you use clean brake fluid to lube things during assembly.

It's also possible for the piston to become damaged due to debris. That can sometimes be corrected w/o replacing the piston, and sometimes a nick or scratch on the piston can also damage the seal.

Just lubing the piston isn't likely to help your problem. Figuring out why it sticks may lead you to some corrective action.
 

Wheelin

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Good job on narrowing down the cause of what you feel.

Brake pistons can stick for different reasons. One is simply a build up of dirt, brake dust, etc around the piston. Pushing it out some, (not all the way), and cleaning it with some brake cleaner and a toothbrush will often do wonders. This is normal maintenance when changing brake pads.

It is also possible for a ring of corrosion to develop. Especially when brake fluid has not been changed every 2 years or so and becomes contaminated with water. Brake fluid absorbs water moisture, so it's not obvious like oil and water would be. Sometimes the corrosion can be cleaned off.

The seals can be damaged too. Brake fluid is the best lubricant for brake pistons. Typically when you re-build the caliper and replace the seals, you use clean brake fluid to lube things during assembly.

It's also possible for the piston to become damaged due to debris. That can sometimes be corrected w/o replacing the piston, and sometimes a nick or scratch on the piston can also damage the seal.

Just lubing the piston isn't likely to help your problem. Figuring out why it sticks may lead you to some corrective action.
Thanks, Eric. When I replay this whole event over in my head, I often wonder if I did something to damage the caliper when I changed the front tire following this video:

...but then I think to myself that I’ve done several tire changes with this video to no ill effect. Still, is there something that the guy in the video could be doing better? This video was recommended in one of the yamahasupertenere.com forums, btw.

As for corrective action, I don’t mind going to a pro if I learn something from the repair that can be applied to the next go around.
 
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EricV

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I watched the video. That is not my preferred method. He's lazy and working harder to be lazy. Not relevant to your front issue, but remove the bolt at the front of the brake tension arm for the rear caliper and lift the arm off the mount point. This makes it much easier to lift off the rear caliper off the rotor and set it aside when doing the rear and you're not fighting the caliper when removing the wheel.

On the front, take the time to remove both front calipers. It's just silly to fuss with one caliper and it's very quick to remove both. That makes re-installing the wheel so much easier too. Besides, it's a good time to inspect your brake pads as well. BTW, 19mm is almost exactly 3/4" , (.748" Vs .750"). 3/4" is sometimes easier to find. Many spark plug sockets have a 3/4" hex on the back side as well. Removing the rubber insert and inserting an extension in backwards allows the spark plug socket to be used as an Allen socket, (if the square drive hole goes all the way through).

I also noted that he neglected to show his re-installation of the wheels. And I'm sure he struggled a bit with that, having one caliper still on and not disconnecting the brake caliper tension arm in the rear, or simply took care of those things before or during his re-install.

The guy does a nice job of talking thru everything and kudos to him for putting it out on the net. But you can really tell it's his first time doing the job on the Super Ten. He's not prepared and he offers some explanations for things that are slightly off, as if he doesn't quite understand why, but has been told that by someone else. Example, you don't touch the brakes because it will push the pistons and therefore the brake pads out and make it impossible to put the caliper back on the wheel w/o retracting the pistons first. The only way you could get air in the system from that is if you completely pushed the pistons out of the caliper. That takes more than one squeeze of the lever or press of the pedal to do that. (several required)

If you really did push the right caliper pistons in after releasing the bleeder valve, did you then bleed the brake system afterwards to remove the air from the system? You didn't need to release the bleed valve. The fluid will just go back to the reservoir if you don't and no fluid is lost.

I should have asked this before, but why do you believe the piston sticks? It's completely normal for pistons to come out unevenly when no pads are in the caliper and you squeeze the lever. Do you feel it's sticking 'out' and dragging? If that is the case, one rotor would get hotter than the other and this should show up quickly with a heat effected rotor.

If you removed the right caliper, why do you feel damage my have occurred? The pads are still in the caliper. The piston is unlikely to be damaged from any of that. Worth noting, the most common error during wheel changes or caliper removal/installation is just getting the caliper back on with both pads on one side instead of with the rotor between the pads. It happens to the best of us.
 

Wheelin

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I watched the video. That is not my preferred method. Not relevant to your front issue, but remove the bolt at the front of the brake tension arm for the rear caliper and lift the arm off the mount point. This makes it much easier to lift off the rear caliper off the rotor and set it aside when doing the rear and you're not fighting the caliper when removing the wheel.
Duly noted, thanks.

On the front, take the time to remove both front calipers. It's just silly to fuss with one caliper and it's very quick to remove both. That makes re-installing the wheel so much easier too. Besides, it's a good time to inspect your brake pads as well.
Not to confuse the matter, but I watched another recommended video from this website regarding the brake pad removal and inspection. The gentleman does it with the caliper still attached to the bike. Hopefully there’s nothing wrong with his method:
.

...you can really tell it's his first time doing the job on the Super Ten. He's not prepared and he offers some explanations for things that are slightly off, as if he doesn't quite understand why, but has been told that by someone else.
Sounds a lot like me, but I’m trying to learn.

If you really did push the right caliper pistons in after releasing the bleeder valve, did you then bleed the brake system afterwards to remove the air from the system? You didn't need to release the bleed valve. The fluid will just go back to the reservoir if you don't and no fluid is lost.
I did indeed bleed the system. As for releasing the bleeder valve, I was just doing with the manual suggested, assuming I read it correctly.

I should have asked this before, but why do you believe the piston sticks? It's completely normal for pistons to come out unevenly when no pads are in the caliper and you squeeze the lever. Do you feel it's sticking 'out' and dragging? If that is the case, one rotor would get hotter than the other and this should show up quickly with a heat effected rotor.
I drew this hypothesis not having had any real mechanical knowledge, which I’m sure you have figured out about me by now. ;) But I’m learning, and I appreciate your explanations. Anyway, I thought I might be sticking because after listening to my wheel after I spinned it around after lifting the front end into the air, it seems louder on the right side than the left side. I don’t seem to be the smartest guy on this forum--or anywhere else, for that matter--but as a trained musician, I have bionic ears. It’s my one paltry physiological advantage.

If you removed the right caliper, why do you feel damage my have occurred? The pads are still in the caliper. The piston is unlikely to be damaged from any of that.
Just me, shooting in the dark again.

Worth noting, the most common error during wheel changes or caliper removal/installation is just getting the caliper back on with both pads on one side instead of with the rotor between the pads. It happens to the best of us.
Believe it or not, that’s not happened to me yet, and I am definitely one of the more inexperienced guys on this forum. :oops:
 
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EricV

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I'm not saying you can't remove the wheel with one caliper still on, just that it's easier to remove both calipers. Just IMHO, neither way is 'wrong'.

Hey, I've installed a wheel with the pads wrong myself. :eek::D You figure it out pretty fast!

We all learn every day. I'm quite sure you're more attuned to subtle sounds than I may be. Identifying those sound sources is the challenge. :) Over time we learn specific noises and sounds from experience and can more easily identify them. 30 years as a machinist has made me very aware of certain sounds, like tooling breaking during a CNC milling machine run.

I don't think you did anything wrong and most likely, nothing is wrong with the brakes. Just a little paranoia on your part. The lack of brakes you first experienced is just due to the pads being pushed apart more during the wheel change. Normally I pump the lever or pedal until it feels firm again before going for a ride after changing tires or having had a wheel off. (I forget on the wife's bike now and then and she squeals like a 10 year old at the end of the driveway when she puts on the brakes and nothing happens.)

It's normal for the pads to rub against the rotor after doing this type of service. That goes away quickly during the next ride. If you see signs of heat affected areas on the rotors, then it's worth re-visiting. Blue metal or excessive heat, dust, etc.
 

Cycledude

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I recommend going for a short ride, mile or so without using the brakes then stop and carefully feel each rotor to find out how warm they are, if there is one that’s dragging badly you will be able to tell.
I’ve experienced this same front right brake dragging issue with my Goldwing and bleeding all the brakes properly fixed it, I have speed Bleeders installed on the Goldwing so bleeding the brakes is a pretty simple one man operation.
I hope to get a set of Speed Bleeders for the Tenere someday.
Here is a very helpful thread about installing Speed Bleeders on a Goldwing.
https://gl1800riders.com/forums/17-how-step-step/233344-speed-bleeders-easy.html
 
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Don in Lodi

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LOL, I've had a couple vehicles come in over the years with one pad installed backwards, makes for an expensive repair when all the owner wanted was to save a buck.
 

Wheelin

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30 years as a machinist has made me very aware of certain sounds, like tooling breaking during a CNC milling machine run.
A machinist, huh? That makes you smarter than me.

I don't think you did anything wrong and most likely, nothing is wrong with the brakes. Just a little paranoia on your part.
Could be. I’ve done tire changes before on this bike and not had the braking feeling that I have now. Fortunately, I know an honest mechanic (contradiction in terms?) who will look it over and not charge me if I’m indeed paranoid. OR maybe you’re BOTH out to get me. :eek: I go to see him Friday, so stay tuned. I’ll issue a mea culpa if he agrees with you that I’m full of equine fecal matter.

Normally I pump the lever or pedal until it feels firm again before going for a ride after changing tires or having had a wheel off. (I forget on the wife's bike now and then and she squeals like a 10 year old at the end of the driveway when she puts on the brakes and nothing happens.)
Yeah, there’s probably better ways to elicit a squeal from the wife. ;)

It's normal for the pads to rub against the rotor after doing this type of service. That goes away quickly during the next ride. If you see signs of heat affected areas on the rotors, then it's worth re-visiting. Blue metal or excessive heat, dust, etc.
If one side of the rotor is warmer, can I assume that that’s the affected side, even if my senses tell me otherwise?
 

Wheelin

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I recommend going for a short ride, mile or so without using the brakes then stop and carefully feel each rotor to find out how warm they are, if there is one that’s dragging badly you will be able to tell.
I’ve experienced this same front right brake dragging issue with my Goldwing and bleeding all the brakes properly fixed it, I have speed Bleeders installed on the Goldwing so bleeding the brakes is a pretty simple one man operation.
I hope to get a set of Speed Bleeders for the Tenere someday.
Here is a very helpful thread about installing Speed Bleeders on a Goldwing.
https://gl1800riders.com/forums/17-how-step-step/233344-speed-bleeders-easy.html
I’ve bled the bejesus out of the brakes. Pretty sure by now that I’ve got the cleanest brake fluid in Orange County right about now.

I don’t have the speed bleeders, either, but I’ve got that one way valve from Motion Pro. It works pretty well, once it is properly primed (i.e. brake fluid reaches the outlet part of the tool).
 

EricV

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Smart is a qualitative thing. Smart in some things is just acquired knowledge. Ignorance is a correctable condition for us all.

You're the hands on site guy. I can only hazard guesses based on my experience and your input. The real question is if something changed, what? And why is it feeling the way you feel it?

The rotors should heat pretty evenly, metal transfers heat well. Left rotor Vs Right rotor, yes if you notice one rotor warmer than the other that would be a clue. But I'm not sure you would be able to tell one side of a rotor Vs the other side of the same rotor. The rotor is supposed to float a bit and the pads should retract ever so slightly after brake use.

W/o using the front brake, if you pumped up the lever to firm before going on the ride, you shouldn't be able to pump it up afterwards. It should still feel firm on the first squeeze. If it can/has to be pumped up to firm, then something is pushing the pads out while in motion. This is typically a warp or bend issue when that occurs.
 
B

ballisticexchris

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Hi there Patrick, Once I get back from my Grand Canyon ride in a few weeks, you are more than welcome to bring your bike over to my place if you still need help with the brakes. I have been following this thread and it's almost impossible to get good advice without seeing the bike. There are dozens of ways to remove and replace wheels, brakes and tires. The video you watched is a great basic "how to". I have strange days off but will let you know and maybe we can work something out. Just shoot me a PM and I'll give you my scheduled days off for he next few months.

I personally do not like speed bleeders or check valve tools. I have my own special way that works for me. Your issue could be something simple or you might have to take it to a good mechanic.

The two best ones near you in Orange County are Gustin's and Mach 1. I have known both Graham Gustin and Long Mach for close to 20 years.

Grahams shop is fairly new. He started his own business when Champion Motorcycles owner retired.
https://www.gustinmotorsports.com/

Long Mach is an old school mechanic who purchased my grandfathers building on Industrial Way. He also has a dyno tuning available. Not cheap but he is really really good.
http://mach1ca.com/
 
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