Lithium-Ion batteries, EVs, and myth busting

EricV

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I believe it’s kinda like the cordless electric tools, 30 years ago they weren’t so popular but these days cordless is mostly what folks prefer to buy and use. I just wish the batteries were standardized so every brand could use the same batteries.
Well stated. And in that line of thought, buying a 4 year old used EV doesn't give me a warm fuzzy on if it will continue to be supported for the duration of my ownership.

When the US moved to digital TV, I had, only a few months before, purchased a new, very high quality TV after owning the prior one for 15 years. I fully expected the new TV to last me another 15 years, so spent the money on a premium product that would last, had a great picture quality and was a known quality product. (Sony Trinitron). A larger version of the one that burned out the picture tube after 15 years. I practically gave it away when I moved to UT because it no longer had significant value due to the switch in technology and the simply fact that the converter boxes were no where near as good as the new digital TVs. To say I was annoyed by this is an understatement. I didn't want to buy another TV and didn't expect to for a very, very long time.

In regards to EVs, with the current level of technological evolution, and lack of standards, I really don't feel too excited about buying a EV today and especially not a used one. OTOH, buying a used ICE vehicle doesn't bother me a bit. The ICE vehicles are not going to significantly change in the next 10 years. But EVs will grow or die based upon new battery technology or something else will come along and be the next power source instead of batteries as we now know them.
 

tntmo

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I believe it’s kinda like the cordless electric tools, 30 years ago they weren’t so popular but these days cordless is mostly what folks prefer to buy and use. I just wish the batteries were standardized so every brand could use the same batteries.
Good point, I just bought a cordless impact wrench. Never thought something like that could compete with my air tools but it's made a believer out of me.
 

Eville Rich

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It's going to be interesting to see how building and transportation electrification evolves over the next decades. While not accessible or practical for all right now, there is a large market for today's technology. Just like home PCs weren't really for everyone in the early/mid 80s, most of us now all walk around with PCs in our pockets and with home computers pretty standard.

Eville Rich
2016 S10
 

WJBertrand

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I believe it’s kinda like the cordless electric tools, 30 years ago they weren’t so popular but these days cordless is mostly what folks prefer to buy and use. I just wish the batteries were standardized so every brand could use the same batteries.
Agreed. I tried to be an early adopter for battery power tools but their nickel cadmium and nickel metal hydride batteries were a major short fall. They would always self discharge so if you hadn't used them in a week or so they were always dead. It'd take longer to recharge them than it took to the job you wanted it for. Even when fully charged, that batteries couldn't even complete a small to moderate size job such as screwing an 8ft section of 1"x 6" fence panels with a battery powered drill. On top of that compared to a corded tool, they really had no power. The advent of higher voltage lithium batteries has really changed everything. I recently purchased a 56V string trimmer to replace my gas powered one. I got fed up with working up a sweat every time I tried to start the gas one. With the lithium one, just press a button and go, the battery holds the charge after using it the last time for weeks. I'm seriously thinking of their lithium battery electric lawn mower if and when I need to replace my Honda.
 

VRODE

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Life of batteries was a concern and can still be on a few vehicles. The air-cooled Gen1 Nissan Leaf sucked while my 8 year old Chevy still has 94% capacity and there are some Teslas doing shuttle service with more than 300,000 miles getting over 90%.

Eric -

No question that buying a $500 beater makes economic sense IF the owner can do the maintenance, rather than having to pay for it, and the supply of inexpensive beater cars decreases over time. I guess we could assume 10 years to hit 100-150,000 miles, at which point most people start thinking about reliability versus cost of replacement.

The EVs do have a higher up-front cost, but again, subtract roughly 3/4 of the operating costs and you can figure out at how many miles the gas and maintenance would cost more. With volume production of EVs this is going to shift faster to the EVs and you can already buy a 4 year old used 65,000 mile Chevy Bolt near here for $14,000.
I should clarify. It's not necessarily the battery life as much as the charge life. Planning around vehicle "downtime" for charging would be an issue for me, as I'm used to being able to go whenever, wherever at the drop of a hat. Commuting is no problem, but I don't commute much anymore (retired). I would find it frustrating to drive 300 miles and then have to stop for a few hours (or overnight) to recharge. I'm sure I could work around it, but I don't feel like paying a lot more for a vehicle and deal with that issue as well. I'm sure automakers are working on greater mileage per charge and I'm confident at some point I'll be ok with an EV.
 

JJTJ2

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I believe it’s kinda like the cordless electric tools, 30 years ago they weren’t so popular but these days cordless is mostly what folks prefer to buy and use. I just wish the batteries were standardized so every brand could use the same batteries.
I haven't tried these yet but if it works as advertised then problem solved.

 

Cycledude

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I haven't tried these yet but if it works as advertised then problem solved.

interesting I had no idea adapters were available, but it’s still like I originally said the batteries should be standardized so all brands were interchangeable without having to spend money on adapters, it would save lots of money.
 

Checkswrecks

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I'm sure we all have a drawer of chargers and cables for all sorts of devices and know the irritation. That's what led the EU to require one phone standard going forward and how come the USB-C/Thunderbolt connector became the standardized choice. It'd be great if that happened for power tools.

Changing subject, saw this relating to electric motorcycles:

They don't have the range most here want and don't have the personality of gas engines, but are great for commuters and you can see the distant future approaching.
 

AVGeek

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Eric hit a couple of points that the pandemic is really bringing close to home as well: living closer to where you work. With the shift to Work From Home (WFH), many companies will give up their (expensive) office spaces in favor of WFH where it makes sense. Most of my work for the last 9 months has been virtual from home. My wife worked for a couple who wound up building homes in the Poconos for all the people leaving the NYC metro area, and demand is far outstripping their supply. With improvements in internet infrastructure, there can be a reversal in urbanization (albeit I believe there will still be a draw to the large cities for some) that will help drive greater adoption of EVs, since most needs will be for short, in-town errands. Delivery and ride services will undoubtedly become nearly 100% electric as well, again given the short trip model on which they work.
 

EricV

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Yesterday there was an article in the local e-paper about Natchez, MS offering a $6k incentive to remote workers to move to Natchez if their employer was out of the area. Buy/build a house for over $150k in Natchez and you get a $2500 credit, then $300/Month over the next year. I didn't hunt down the details, but basically they are attempting to get more people to move there that have a solid income that is not dependent on the local economy, but by living there they would contribute to the local economy. MS is not a great place to be a worker, but it's a great place to be retired or living with your income coming from somewhere else. Low taxes, low cost of living, relatively low housing costs, etc.

In line with what AVGeek wrote, that type of reversal in urbanization makes sense. For the blue collar worker bees that physically go to work every day, not so much. For them, living closer to work is the cost effective answer in some cases. In others, the high cost of housing where the concentration of jobs are forces the commute to be longer.

The white collar, East Coast people that have/had insane commutes into the cities because they didn't want to raise their families in the city may change with WFH becoming more of a widespread reality. And I agree that could very well fuel more EV use. That segment is also more likely to be able to afford the higher entry cost of the EV, offset some by the savings of no longer driving to the train station, hours on the train every day and driving home.

This type of economic and physical demographic change may be what the EV segment of transport needs to reach the tipping point into mainstream.
 

VRODE

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Here's something I wondered about that I've never seen discussed. How are EV's in regards to keeping the cabin area warm? As someone who lives in the way northeast, does keeping the car warm use a lot of energy? Would it infringe on your available mileage?
 

JJTJ2

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Here's something I wondered about that I've never seen discussed. How are EV's in regards to keeping the cabin area warm? As someone who lives in the way northeast, does keeping the car warm use a lot of energy? Would it infringe on your available mileage?
In my recent investigation/reading, having to heat the cabin cuts the range by as much as 40% whereas running the AC cuts it by only 17%. Also, it is instantaneous heat since there isn't an engine to warm up and you can have the car automatically heat up or cool down before you get in.
 

LJM

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I Could really care less what an EV vs. ICE amounts too but leave the Government out of it, in other words the $40,000 EV with a $7500 credit that is coming out of my pocket really rubs me the wrong way.
In a country where a collage education will cost around $120,000, Medical insurance another $10,000-12,000K a year for a single healthy individual & food lines in major cities a goverment rebate/credit for a car is insane.
 

Checkswrecks

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I Could really care less what an EV vs. ICE amounts too but leave the Government out of it, in other words the $40,000 EV with a $7500 credit that is coming out of my pocket really rubs me the wrong way.
In a country where a collage education will cost around $120,000, Medical insurance another $10,000-12,000K a year for a single healthy individual & food lines in major cities a goverment rebate/credit for a car is insane.
As are so many other things, but let's leave the politics out.
 

Checkswrecks

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Here's something I wondered about that I've never seen discussed. How are EV's in regards to keeping the cabin area warm? As someone who lives in the way northeast, does keeping the car warm use a lot of energy? Would it infringe on your available mileage?
Definitely a difference and in Vermont you at least want the electric seats that most EVs seem to come with. Cabin heat can definitely take a toll because the car doesn't have the big radiator giving off engine cooling heat. My winter range is 25% less than my summer range and some of the high performance EVs are better because they use cooling liquid for the electric motors to help them run more efficiently, so it is model dependent.
 

WJBertrand

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Some EVs have I believe water or oil cooled electric motors and batteries. I wonder why they cannot borrow that heat for the cabin, similar to the way an ICE heater works?
 

Checkswrecks

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Some EVs have I believe water or oil cooled electric motors and batteries. I wonder why they cannot borrow that heat for the cabin, similar to the way an ICE heater works?
They do and it's what I mentioned, but not all.

The thing is that coolant in an EV is not like in a piston engine. In an EV it is meant to equalize the temps of all the little cells throughout the battery so they all age equally. The coolant is sometimes used as a heating fluid and sometimes used as a coolant, but the temps seldom (hopefully) get as hot as in an ICE engine so even when used as a coolant there's not as much heat input to share with the cabin.
 

LJM

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As are so many other things, but let's leave the politics out.
Um, you were the one who explained in your 1st post about the $7500.00 tax credit Politics has nothing more to do with my comment than yours. You appear to like the idea of a tax credit & I don't that's not politics
 
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