Drive Chain "judder" / Clutch Kangarooing

[dmmsta]

Bike has developed what I can describe as kangarooing (think back to the first time you drove a manual car, and hadn't mastered clutch control).
Seems to be more pronounced when cold.
Bike is currently in for 24k service, and advised shop of this behaviour.
Mechanic calls today and mentions about clutch basket issues on Gen1. He is going to have a looksee tomorrow. Basically he has said that the Gen1 basket is riveted onto the drive plate (flywheel??) and these can fail or the holes get extended allowing the basket to rotate causing the judder/kangaroo?
I've done some reading, but still getting used to the search on this forum, so either getting hundreds of resutls of 2-3.

Does this sound familar to people.
Is he on the right path here

I've had a look on the Fowlers parts list, ~£550, but on back order for the 2014> basket (2BS-16150-00). Partzilla in the US has it listed for around $380, but delivery could be late November.

I use the bike as a daily commuter...so hoping this is all a red herring, but want to be as informed as possible...plan for the worse and all that

 

[Juan]

The Gen1 clutch basket shouldn't do what you're experiencing. The problem with with clutch basket is that there's vibration at around the 3k revs. If you can live with that (as I do), then the clutch basket need not be replaced. Starting with a simple question - are you using the correct spec engine oil?

 

[dmmsta]

The Gen1 clutch basket shouldn't do what you're experiencing. The problem with with clutch basket is that there's vibration at around the 3k revs. If you can live with that (as I do), then the clutch basket need not be replaced. Starting with a simple question - are you using the correct spec engine oil?

Have to say I’ve not noticed the vibes I’ve read about, but I come from a line of TDMs so may be immune.

Oil is of spec 10w40 semi. JASO MA spec.

 

[dmmsta]

Mechanic has had the clutch basket out.
Noted movement on 3x springs in the basket, and "witness" marks on these springs indicating impact at some level.
He's spoken with some Yam dealers who have said this is early signs of terminal failure, but other that haven't said the same.
His advise is to put together again, and then if my issue continues to get the newer basket.

Can anyone comment on the first part - marks on springs??

 

[Dogdaze]

That is normal for Gen 1, the Gen 2 version hss better dampers. I have yet to hear of a Gen 1 basket failing though. Could it be a weak diaphragm spring that is causing this issue? They are not the best idea and some have replaced those with the Barnett version with great success.
Were there any burn marks (blueing) on the steels that may indicate something catching?
If you do decide to change out the basket, have a look at Stadium Yamaha in the US, I got mine from there, really quickly too. I have a Gen 2 bike now though.

 

[Boris]

Just a word of caution if you go down the basket upgrade, I used Partzilla for the 2014 basket and the one I received was defective. I had hassle with them returning it and ended up around £70 out of pocket.

 

[dmmsta]

Thanks both...

That is normal for Gen 1, the Gen 2 version hss better dampers. I have yet to hear of a Gen 1 basket failing though. Could it be a weak diaphragm spring that is causing this issue? They are not the best idea and some have replaced those with the Barnett version with great success.
Were there any burn marks (blueing) on the steels that may indicate something catching?
If you do decide to change out the basket, have a look at Stadium Yamaha in the US, I got mine from there, really quickly too. I have a Gen 2 bike now though.

I'll check with the mechanic about the blueing, and thanks for the dealer pointer.

Just a word of caution if you go down the basket upgrade, I used Partzilla for the 2014 basket and the one I received was defective. I had hassle with them returning it and ended up around £70 out of pocket.

Noted.
I was going to use them, but cautious now...

 

[EricV]

The witness marks are normal and not an indicator of failure. At 24k (miles or kms?), it's pretty low for anything to wear significantly.

That said, yes, there have been a couple of Gen I clutch basket failures. Things came apart and it was clearly obvious when disassembled. This does not seem to be your situation on the face of it.

If the mechanic had the clutch basket out, he should have had a good luck at the clutch plates. Any signs of burning or slipping?

Another issue, not mentioned in a while, but there were several some years back, is clutch plates sticking together and giving poor clutch action or not allowing full disengage. Pulling the plates and soaking them in engine oil overnight seemed to cure this. Make sure they are separated when soaking so oil gets to both sides of all plates.

Hopefully the bike will be fine when you get it back. If not toss it on the center stand, (hopefully you have one), put the bike in gear. Have someone hold the clutch lever in and see how much resistance there is to spin the rear wheel. It should have some, but not a huge amount that you struggle against.

 

[dmmsta]

The witness marks are normal and not an indicator of failure. At 24k (miles or kms?), it's pretty low for anything to wear significantly.

That said, yes, there have been a couple of Gen I clutch basket failures. Things came apart and it was clearly obvious when disassembled. This does not seem to be your situation on the face of it.

If the mechanic had the clutch basket out, he should have had a good luck at the clutch plates. Any signs of burning or slipping?

Another issue, not mentioned in a while, but there were several some years back, is clutch plates sticking together and giving poor clutch action or not allowing full disengage. Pulling the plates and soaking them in engine oil overnight seemed to cure this. Make sure they are separated when soaking so oil gets to both sides of all plates.

Hopefully the bike will be fine when you get it back. If not toss it on the center stand, (hopefully you have one), put the bike in gear. Have someone hold the clutch lever in and see how much resistance there is to spin the rear wheel. It should have some, but not a huge amount that you struggle against.

Hi Eric

Thanks for the advise. Quick answers to a couple of the questions (as I didn't specific before)
24k miles
Centre Stand = YES
Will ask about clutch plate condition when I speak to mechanic.

A

 

[EricV]

Forgot to mention that the loose springs are normal too, unless they appear so loose they could fall out. I upgraded my clutch basket on my previous 2012 bike with some custom tweaks from a fellow in TX at about 70k miles and the springs were as your mechanic described. I had not had any 'judder' or kangarooing like you describe, just vibration in the 3-4k range under load. He minimized that after a couple of goes, but then Yamaha came out with the 2014 Gen II design, which is fully backwards compatible with the Gen I bikes, so I swapped to that and it was even better/smoother.

Engagement issues make me think of other possibilities too. Wondering out loud about a clutch bleed and throttle cable play. After that I'd suspect clutch plates, pressure plate and the clutch basket itself as your mechanic has suggested.

If you normally run in T mode, double check that it's not in S mode. When you're not used to it, S mode is more sensitive to throttle movement and can result in some kangarooing type action, especially at low speeds.

 

[dmmsta]

That is normal for Gen 1, the Gen 2 version hss better dampers. I have yet to hear of a Gen 1 basket failing though. Could it be a weak diaphragm spring that is causing this issue? They are not the best idea and some have replaced those with the Barnett version with great success.
Were there any burn marks (blueing) on the steels that may indicate something catching?
If you do decide to change out the basket, have a look at Stadium Yamaha in the US, I got mine from there, really quickly too. I have a Gen 2 bike now though.

FYI regarding Stadium Yamaha:

https://www.lonestaryamaha.com/

 

[dmmsta]

Forgot to mention that the loose springs are normal too, unless they appear so loose they could fall out. I upgraded my clutch basket on my previous 2012 bike with some custom tweaks from a fellow in TX at about 70k miles and the springs were as your mechanic described. I had not had any 'judder' or kangarooing like you describe, just vibration in the 3-4k range under load. He minimized that after a couple of goes, but then Yamaha came out with the 2014 Gen II design, which is fully backwards compatible with the Gen I bikes, so I swapped to that and it was even better/smoother.

Engagement issues make me think of other possibilities too. Wondering out loud about a clutch bleed and throttle cable play. After that I'd suspect clutch plates, pressure plate and the clutch basket itself as your mechanic has suggested.

If you normally run in T mode, double check that it's not in S mode. When you're not used to it, S mode is more sensitive to throttle movement and can result in some kangarooing type action, especially at low speeds.

I ride in both modes. Tend to switch between depending on the part of my journey.

As we move towards the colder months T mode will be more prominent.

Going to email this thread to the mechanic for me to have a read too

 

[steve68steve]

I'd change the oil and re-evaluate first.

If it gets better but not perfect, I'd next consider the friction discs/ clutch plates. If they're all in-spec and look good, then I'd suspect the basket.

If the symptom doesn't improve after oil change, I'd check the rubbers in the cush drive first, maybe flush the hydraulic fluid from the master cylinder thru the slave, change the drive shaft oil and make sure it's not full of shavings. If all that checked out, then I'd suspect the basket.

 

[dmmsta]

UPDATE
Bikes back from its 24k mile service.
initial opinion is that the judder has all but gone. Per above mechanic noted some where on the springs, but nothing anymore significant.
I've be paying specific attention now, and note that when cold there is the usual "clunk" as I engage 1st gear (obv's from standing start), then as I feather clutch out there is a 2nd more subtle clunk - I assume of the drive shaft engaging.
I assumed there would be less feeling of movement as the clutch is released. This may just be my lack of experience with a shaft drive (this is my first).

Currently in review mode. Paying attention to all things clutch & drive related.
I've got a quote from LoneStar Yamaha (formally Stadium Yamaha) as per above comments for the clucth basket, and can get delivered into the UK for £150+ cheaper than the same part in the UK.

Lets see what a month and 1600 miles does for it.

 

[Scoti49]

It must be an Austraian model Tenere (kangarooing ) !

Good advice change basket ,get cultch kit a use Yamaha 10W-40 FULL synthetic engine oil .