Crash on Dragon captured on camera. Yet again and this one is pretty rough

[imrubicon]

There is another element here that often gets over looked... We have these same spec photographers out here in Malibu. They stand on the side of the road in the apex of some very technical turns where a lot of amateur (though pro in their head) motorcyclists plow through at high speeds on narrow crowded roads... They use flashes on tripods offset from where they stand... coming around the bend, concentrating when suddenly there is a guy... whats he doing? FLASH shit, what was that... the rest is history.

I HATE these guys . They are dangerous, often operating without permits and with very little planning. They are never in the same place so you cant even get used to their location.

Just my opinion. Had the camera man not been there, the guy in these pictures would probably had a nice ride. Instead, he distracted the rider causing him to break concentration, lose his line, show off and destroy his bike....

another west coaster blaming everyone but the guy who made the mistake

Really its no one fault but the rider period.
If some guy standing on the side of the road can distract you so can pretty flowers and the you would blame the person who planted the flowers .
It was riders error plain and simple

 

[creggur]

Here's how you do it - nice and easy, plenty of room for error, wife on waving duty. Best looking bike on the hill that day - drew lots of attention at the resort:

http://xtremesportsphotography.photoreflect.com/store/Orderpage.aspx?pi=0QAK01AY040108&po=108&pc=603

Another point - where the photographers were setup (on Tuesday anyway) you could see them two curves before you got to them if you are looking through the curves properly. It was no surprise when you got to the corner they were setup on - if anything it gives people the opportunity to prepare to show off when they get near the cameras...I just don't see how anyone can blame the photogs for this.

And like I said before: there was plenty of shenanigans going on nowhere near the photographers. Most people were enjoying their ride, pulling over to let faster traffic pass, etc. The only time I got scared that day was mid-corner on a left downhill hairpin - I was committed to my line and leaned as far as COMFORTABLE with a pillion on board (room and talent in reserve) when a Ducati (barely saw him, but the engine sound was distinct) came by in the other direction WOT with knee dragging. He was in control, I was in control, it was just very close quarters with little room for error if one of us goofed...

I've ridden it now, and got the t-shirt and pics, but I doubt I'll go back unless I'm with friends who want to see it for themselves. And I definitely wouldn't do it on a weekend...

 

[coastie]

Awesome Creggur, how long were you two up there?

 

[creggur]

Awesome Creggur, how long were you two up there?

Rode up last Sunday, and came back yesterday. We stayed in Helen, Ga and enjoyed some of the Oktoberfest stuff in the evenings. There are so many great roads up there - we're planning on going back in March...

 

[MikeBear]

Wow. I am speechless.
I wanted to start playing "blame" game, but once the whole thing settled in my head...poor guy. So many things went wrong that time... I hope he is ok.

 

[DubbleJay]

Photographer in no way made that moron crash no more than a good looking girl standing on the side of the road would have. First thing people need to realize here is you are in control of YOUR vehicle and by looking off the road, waving your arms, talking on a cell phone, reading a newspaper, shaving or what ever you call it besides driving YOU are the problem.

I did not mean to infer that the photographer is the sole reason this guy went down... I simply stated that he was an element or factor to consider in the situation. All of you that are making comparisons to pretty girls, or flowers or piles of money or whatever common occurence on the side of the road are overlooking that these are passive distractions that you see everyday. What about those things that are directly engaging with you while your going down the road... I tend to think those things are a little more problematic. Obviously this guy made a mistake by showing off, and yes it is entirely his fault, however lets just consider that somehow this guy had the ability to get through the dragon all the way until this point where there was a photographer to wave at... and suddenly he cant make the turn. His fault but there are other factors that set this particular incident in motion.

Wow, Roy and I agree on something!!! I absolutely agree 100% here!!!!

To think anything else would be to say the same as a fork and a knife made you fat.

Again, not saying that the because of the photographer he crashed. Im saying that the photographer did not help. Just like the the cost and convenience of fast food doesn't help all you fatties avoid heart attacks.

Doublejay, You wouldn't happen to be a personal injury attorney by any chance

No... I am not. But I have been that Corvette and I didn't have the luxury of having a Corvette between me and the idiot waving at the camera. Look at this video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBTGgT_V5F8 Same thing in my opinion. Obviously the guy crashed his own bike.... but the cops position is an exercise in plain roadway stupidity. And I would love to have a debate on this one with any LEO, because this is also dangerous and stupid.

another west coaster blaming everyone but the guy who made the mistake

Really its no one fault but the rider period.
If some guy standing on the side of the road can distract you so can pretty flowers and the you would blame the person who planted the flowers .
It was riders error plain and simple

Im sorry you feel that way Prairie Home Companion. Maybe you might have a different opinion if you came out and rode somewhere that has roads that bend, turn, rise and drop all in a mile or so. Its easy to be confident on your bike when your droning along in a straight line for 100 miles to catch that deal at Walmart...

Again to everyone... the photographer was an element in the crash and an element that repeatedly causes accidents at least here. Whose fault matters not. There is obviously hazardous condition being created and should be removed. Thats my opinion. Just calling him an idiot does nothing for the safety of others... Perhaps when your on the receiving end of one of these crashes you'll feel differently.

 

[troll]

??? just the fact of the Dragon's popularity makes it a very dangerous place. : way to many folks trying to have fun there for me. I think the Dragon has been loved too much . I am sure lots of folks get hurt there every year. By the look of the photos that lad probably left the area in an ambulance. ::26:: ::26::

 

[creggur]

Again to everyone... the photographer was an element in the crash and an element that repeatedly causes accidents at least here. Whose fault matters not. There is obviously hazardous condition being created and should be removed. Thats my opinion. Just calling him an idiot does nothing for the safety of others... Perhaps when your on the receiving end of one of these crashes you'll feel differently.

But the only reason the photographer was an element in the crash is because the rider actively engaged him. I said before, I was there on that Tuesday, and saw the crash site - you could see where the photographer was stationed two curves before you got to him. This guy chose to showboat and it cost him (and the Vette owner) more than it should. I just can't see, in any way, how this is the photographer's fault - the rider chose to engage the photog - every over rider/driver that day somehow made it through those corners unscathed...

 

[DubbleJay]

Yes your right. Maybe Im being misunderstood... I don't think it's the photographers fault exactly, I do think his being on that corner creates a dangerous situation for everyone else, including the idiots who showboat.

His presence encourages riders skilled or not to make poor decisions... You can speak for only yourself. You may choose to be safe... But others may not. As a rider who is only as safe as the others on the road allow me to be, I tend to be somewhat critical of things that encourage unsafe road conditions...

Just sayin...

 

[autoteach]

I rode through a corner that had a tree with bark removed off of it...it wasn't entirely the trees fault I am sure, but how risky of a tree to grow there... O

 

[Checkswrecks]

In the terminology of accident investigation, the photographer was a "factor" in parsing out contributing factors. btw - I'm quite familiar with both the Dragon and Mulholland Hwy and am sure the rider could see the photogs well ahead of time.


Causality is usually not attributed to one person or issue formally, it is a chain and accidents are almost always a chain of events. Take out a link and the chain no longer exists. In this case, most of the links do lie with the rider. What I see:
(1) Roadside distractions exist and in this case happened to be photographers.
(2) The Dragon rider intentionally reduces control by taking a hand off the bars. If you don't think this is a factor, try a panic stop, in a turn, with one hand.
(3) The rider's focus is on the photog.
(4) The rider does not exhibit good vehicle control in the corner with his body position on the bike. He is sitting on it like a rowboat and not leaning into the turn to provide additional clearance to prevent hard parts dragging.
(5) The oncoming traffic provides a surprise factor. The sexy 'Vette, bright red, popping from behind the corner, etc. What we can not see is the speed of the car, as it can add to this.
(6) The rider brakes while his body is in motion to both turn and bring the second hand back into use.
(7) At least four things combine to bring the bike upright, his braking, his bracing for deceleration one-handed, m/c dynamics, and his target fixation.
(8) Inconsistent follow through. Watch his brake light and changes in fork extension. Inconsistent follow through would likely imply that he is not providing maximum braking. (When was the last time everybody here PRACTICED maximum braking in different attitudes!)
(9) From how he lands, I'd expect serious to severe injuries. My prayers go out to him and to all of us, we have him as a case lesson to improve from.




btw - The CHP officer sits on that corner of Mulholland for the downhill traffic, heading toward the Rock Store, and the uphill Kawi was going fast enough that a flinch in braking put him down. Again, the officer provided a target to fixate on and a surprise, just like the photogs on the Dragon. But the rider had virtually no reserve to the combination of his capability, on that bike, on that pavement.

 

[autoteach]

The only time that I know of a roadside distraction causing an accident was the M-2-M (Milwaukee to Minneapolis) Rally where a hottie in a bikini was mowing the lawn. Her fault, totally.

 

[coastie]

Looks like oil left on the road from this accident may have caused another rider to go down in the exact same spot. Here is thread linking the two accidents. Crazy

http://www.easttnriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41945

 

[Firefight911]

Yes your right. Maybe Im being misunderstood... I don't think it's the photographers fault exactly, I do think his being on that corner creates a dangerous situation for everyone else, including the idiots who showboat.

His presence encourages riders skilled or not to make poor decisions... You can speak for only yourself. You may choose to be safe... But others may not. As a rider who is only as safe as the others on the road allow me to be, I tend to be somewhat critical of things that encourage unsafe road conditions...

Just sayin...

So, it's not the photographer's fault, it's the corner's fault. Then leave the photographer there and repave the road so it's straight, problem solved.

Maybe we can only "speak for ourselves" but I can assure you this, you also need to be responsible for yourself. This guy wasn't, therefore, he paid the price for his lack of personal responsibility. Period.

 

[Rasher]

Maybe we can only "speak for ourselves" but I can assure you this, you also need to be responsible for yourself. This guy wasn't, therefore, he paid the price for his lack of personal responsibility. Period.

Harsh but true, he knew the Photog was there in plenty of time to wave, if I was suddenly and dangerously distracted I doubt I would throw a friendly wave to whoever was risking my life.

The problem is some guys will play for a crowd / picture / to impress mates, and I suspect a road like this attracts many of the sorts with more ego than talent.

We have a few very poular roads like this in the UK, or more to the point a lack of good roads like this, so everyone flocks to the few good ones, typically a few morons throw themselves into the scenery at 150mph and the authorities lower the speed limit from 60 down to 50, or even 40 completely ruining the ride if you stick to the limits - and it makes no odds to those who have always been prepared to more than double them anyway.

Some cars then stick religously to the limit and bikes pile up behind them and start making desperate overtakes to get past before the next set of bend, and any biker riding safely within his limits and at a perfectly sensible pace for the road / conditions is also going to be a speeding biker.

I avoid such places, they have all been ruined by the minority and do nothing but give biking a bad name bringing further rules and restrictions on all of us.

This seems to be a cultural thing, when I set of to Europe I see much less of this, and where you do see really bad riding it is often Brits who have crossed the sea to avoid the risk of losing their licence. Luckily by the time you get into the best bits (Pyrenees / Alps) you have exceeded the touring range of the British Power Ranger and the (motorcycling) world is a better place.

Once in the Alps I don't find loads of bikers trying to race each other, if you catch someone they wave you by instead of trying to up their game to stop you getting past, or clinging to your tail light once you have passed. It seems everyone is there to enjoy the roads at their own pace.

It certainly helps that the roads are less crowded, but there seems to be a much lower percentage (almost zero) who are determined to throw themselves down the road / impress their mates / race every other bike, of course you do get the odd crash, but in my half dozen (1-2 week) biking holidays to Europe I have seen less "bad behaviour" than I would in an hour at any "top" UK Biking Road on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[Old Git Ray]

In the terminology of accident investigation, the photographer was a "factor" in parsing out contributing factors.

Totally agree. Not the photogs fault but if he had not been there, it is unlikely the accident would have happened.

But the rider had virtually no reserve to the combination of his capability, ......

This is a one liner that is at the heart of most crashes....... NO RESERVE. If you are on the limit, you are on the limit. If something goes wrong or distracts you, its all over bar the ride to hospital.

 

[Dirt_Dad]

In the terminology of accident investigation...

Interesting to get the perspective of a professional who reviews accidents for living. Thanks, Bob.


From my layman's perspective, I prefer to ride in places where there aren't so many "factors." There are many wonderful nearly empty roads in that area near the Dragon. I'm happy to go down and ride those. One of the last times I led a group ride down there I had a couple of riders that had never done the Dragon and wanted to ride it. Internal groan... but I also had an enthusiastic guy who had ridden it the day before and also wanted to go back. For that section I let the enthusiastic guy lead. I was more than happy to let him run ahead and warn me of the surprise tractor trailers taking up all lanes coming at you (yes, I seen it), the police (yes, they were there), and the guys not able to stay in their lane (seen that a lot). I prefer leaving The Dragon to the tourist.

 

[RED CAT]

I guess we are really lucky here in Alberta, Canada compared to the UK. Our backroads are very uncrowded. Hardly even see more than a couple of other bikers. On our great gravel roads we seldom see anyone. We have it all to ourselves. Forget seeing any cops there too. Not so true around the city or popular tourist spots though. But I leave that to the tourists. We can whip out a fab ride of 350km in a matter of hours and do a nice loop. BC is even better. The PNW in the U.S., Montana, Idaho and Washington are even better. Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Northern California. Wow. Haven't been on the Dragon but from the vids I've seen, I don't see what all the hoopla is about. ::001::

 

[MrTwisty]

Looks like oil left on the road from this accident may have caused another rider to go down in the exact same spot. Here is thread linking the two accidents. Crazy

http://www.easttnriders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41945

So, I think we have established that the photogs weren't responsible for the Harley/Vette crash, but who is responsible for this one?

FWIW - I have the good fortune to live in the vicinity of, arguably, some of the best ribbons of asphault in the world, including The Dragon, but as others have pointed out, Deal's Gap is a zoo on the weekends. However, if you can catch it on a warm winter weekend day, then it is pure bliss. I've ridden it on numerous weekend days without even seeing another vehicle. ::26::

 

[MotorcopBBQ]

The dragon is no place for, "Hotdogging."