Camping and Sleep Apnea

Cantab

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Hmm... That was weird. It's running in CPAP mode, so it shouldn't be varying it's power consumption like it would on APAP where it all depends on the night. If I may be so bold, try it with the humidifier set to 1 again, but turn off the hose completely. Heating the hose serves little purpose when you are using so little humidification. It's power you don't need to waste. I do have a sock on my heated hose that does help prevent rainout. But honestly, even when I used the plain unheated hose on my last machine (with the sock), I would only get a few drips in my face in the morning, but only after an 8hr+ night.... I almost miss the little bit of dripping as it used to help me wake up in the morning! Even if you don't have a sock for your hose, turn off the hose heat all together, it just eats battery.

I finally got to see my new Super Tenere today.... It's touch and go about getting the Jackery into the sidecase.... I won't know for sure until I try. If it doesn't fit, it can go in the waterproof duffel bag I plan to have on the rack/back seat. A 60 or 70 liter duffel bag can hold an awful lot of stuff and is easy to strap down.
Im willing to try your suggestion - why not :) makes sense ill wait a couple of nights and try.

That jackery is a beast for sure , the duffel bag will gobble it up.
I have a Ventura Pack Rack and an RJays pack with my panniers.
 

kaptain_zero

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I have a bit more information today. My Jackery arrived and it has a very good watt meter on it. You can tell exactly much much power is being used from second to second.

The surprising bit is that while heating does use some energy, the lions share is used by the actual air compressor IF you are breathing in. Disconnecting the hose from the mask made the current draw skyrocket. So..... this means that anything that causes you to open your mouth or allow air to escape will shorten the amount of time you can get off a battery. A mask leak or the jaw relaxing and allowing some air to escape through the mouth (this applies to nasal masks/pillows and not full face masks) will cause the amount of watts drawn to rise quite dramatically. While breathing normally with my humidifier set to 5, I was in the 45ish watt range... When I disconnected the hose or breathed in deeply, the number of watts rose to 60ish when breathing in deeply and almost 90 watts when I disconnected the hose from the mask. So, this might indicate that perhaps you had a larger than normal air leak when you tested with the humidifier set to 1 (causes of air leaks are many). I don't know if you can check, but my machine reports air leak levels for every night and I can go back and review each night on my Android phone app.

So, I learned something new..... The effect of heating the humidifier and hose will raise power consumption, but air leaks will have a bigger impact on how much power is consumed. I am going to leave my S10 set to it's normal settings for home and use it on the Jackery tonight. We'll see in the morning exactly how many watts it consumed over the night.
 

Cantab

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I have a bit more information today. My Jackery arrived and it has a very good watt meter on it. You can tell exactly much much power is being used from second to second.

The surprising bit is that while heating does use some energy, the lions share is used by the actual air compressor IF you are breathing in. Disconnecting the hose from the mask made the current draw skyrocket. So..... this means that anything that causes you to open your mouth or allow air to escape will shorten the amount of time you can get off a battery. A mask leak or the jaw relaxing and allowing some air to escape through the mouth (this applies to nasal masks/pillows and not full face masks) will cause the amount of watts drawn to rise quite dramatically. While breathing normally with my humidifier set to 5, I was in the 45ish watt range... When I disconnected the hose or breathed in deeply, the number of watts rose to 60ish when breathing in deeply and almost 90 watts when I disconnected the hose from the mask. So, this might indicate that perhaps you had a larger than normal air leak when you tested with the humidifier set to 1 (causes of air leaks are many). I don't know if you can check, but my machine reports air leak levels for every night and I can go back and review each night on my Android phone app.

So, I learned something new..... The effect of heating the humidifier and hose will raise power consumption, but air leaks will have a bigger impact on how much power is consumed. I am going to leave my S10 set to it's normal settings for home and use it on the Jackery tonight. We'll see in the morning exactly how many watts it consumed over the night.
Some great info you're finding out kap, yes i can download info (Oscar) and i will check for leaks , i do use a face strap to hold my jaw closed as mine has opened and i hadnt noticed but my wife did !
Be interesting for sure how you get on with the Jackery.
:)
 

kaptain_zero

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Be interesting for sure how you get on with the Jackery.
:)
Yes, I'm interested too! :)

This 500w unit is slightly larger than I would have liked, and the 300w version has more up to date connectors on the front, but 300w didn't seem to be enough capacity, thus I made the best choice I could. Perhaps by the time this one is ready to be replaced, the new ones will have all the features I would like to have.

I'll post my findings in about 24 hours, when I've run it for the night. And speaking of air leaks..... I just had a look at the past few nights on my machine and it looks like I need to re-adjust my mask!
 

elricfate

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So it absolutely makes sense that you would see a greater power usage when there's open air flowing. The CPAP actually uses less power when you're breathing into it because the compressor motor kicks down for the exhalation (at least the S9 and S10 have that feature), then kicks back up for the inhalation. It becomes less a constant pressure and more constant relative pressure. So an open mask, an air leak, an open mouth, all of these things will cause it to work harder and therefore draw more energy. In terms of additional parasitic drains, heating the hose and heating the humidifier won't cause catastrophic energy consumption, but they are a determining factor on whether you will get that extra night eked out of a pack without charging or not. I would say that you could use the smaller pack if you either ALSO packed a solar panel OR charged it in a pannier while you were riding, assuming you're not in a base camp situation.
 

kaptain_zero

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I don't have all the data yet, but I did leave my s10 at it's normal @home settings with heated hose and humidifier set to 5. I slept just over 8 hours and my Jackery showed 21% left and a quick calculation shows I consumed 42.5w per hour. I did tweak my mask before going to bed, so leaks should have been minimal. I am currently waiting for the machine to upload all last nights stats so I can see exactly what happened. Obviously, with full settings on the CPAP, I would have to do a full re-charge daily and carrying a 100w solar panel + relying on full sun every day is not practical, so I would have to find nearby access to mains for charging daily. When I get the report, I will post the info here.... Otherwise, tonight I will run an unheated hose and turn the humidifier down to 1 and we'll see how that goes. The ONLY thing I didn't like about last night is that the Jackery's cooling fan kept kicking in every 15 minutes or so..... However, compared to the furnace in my tent trailer, it's not that loud and so I realise I'll sleep through it just fine.
 

elricfate

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I don't have all the data yet, but I did leave my s10 at it's normal @home settings with heated hose and humidifier set to 5. I slept just over 8 hours and my Jackery showed 21% left and a quick calculation shows I consumed 42.5w per hour. I did tweak my mask before going to bed, so leaks should have been minimal. I am currently waiting for the machine to upload all last nights stats so I can see exactly what happened. Obviously, with full settings on the CPAP, I would have to do a full re-charge daily and carrying a 100w solar panel + relying on full sun every day is not practical, so I would have to find nearby access to mains for charging daily. When I get the report, I will post the info here.... Otherwise, tonight I will run an unheated hose and turn the humidifier down to 1 and we'll see how that goes. The ONLY thing I didn't like about last night is that the Jackery's cooling fan kept kicking in every 15 minutes or so..... However, compared to the furnace in my tent trailer, it's not that loud and so I realise I'll sleep through it just fine.
Don't forget, you're losing a bunch of efficiency by going from 18v to 120v back to 18v. I think that's what your S10 runs off of, but either way you're doing a three step conversion by plugging your brick into the 120v on your battery pack.
 

kaptain_zero

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Yep, the Jackery has 513w but an efficiency rating of .85 on the inverter (so around 425w). I have no idea what the efficiency would be on a step up voltage regulator that would convert 12v to 24v which the S10 runs on, but I know for sure it's NOT ZERO! :p Gear wise, I could leave the power brick for the CPAP at home, but would have to replace it with a voltage regulator of likely the same size. The key here is to see if I can get two nights of CPAP per charge without having to resort to sourcing extra parts and making a step up converter. The odds of saving enough energy to get an extra day between charges is not looking good, so may not be worth the effort.

The data made it's way back to my phone and my air leaks were pretty bad. Naturally, I'm due for a new mask and hose, so that is part of the reason. Tonight, I'll ditched the heated hose, turn the humidifier to 1 and see what happens, and yes, I'll diddle with the mask to see if I can get it to seal better. I twist and turn in my sleep and the mask gets pushed around, thus causing leaks. It's rarely perfect, but I do notice leaks start to rise when the mask is about 6 months old, which mine is right now.
 

Cantab

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Don't forget, you're losing a bunch of efficiency by going from 18v to 120v back to 18v. I think that's what your S10 runs off of, but either way you're doing a three step conversion by plugging your brick into the 120v on your battery pack.
I found a 12V-24V DC to DC converter for my S10 https://www.bixpower.com/product-p/dc12t24-s10.htm
This should be more efficient right ? and work with my PS-45 ( https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/energy-storage/ps45-power-station/ )
 

elricfate

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kaptain_zero

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Yep. "Efficient" is a relative term here, you're still going to see a higher drain as it steps up the voltage from 12v to 24v, but it's still going to be more efficient than inverting it to 120v.
Relative indeed. Unfortunately, they give no specifics at all in the description and so we are "assuming" it is more efficient. There is no guaranty it will be, and it will also depend on the quality of the inverter we are comparing it to. To me, that sounds like an awful lot of money to pay for "possibly" being more efficient, especially if you find it's only marginally better or worse, poor design/components were used and it ends up being no better than the built in inverter.

So last night was weird for me. S10 set with humidifier to 1, I went to bed at 12:15 am only to suffer with waking up every 30 minutes or so until 5 am. Then I was wide awake and thought I would tough it out until 7:15 am. When 7:15 rolled around I thought I'd make it 8:15 am to give me a solid 8 hours on the Jackery. I woke up at 10:15 <groan> so I had a full 10 hours of cpap with the humidifier set to 1 and a plain hose. I still had 60% left on the Jackery, so it would appear it's good for 2 nights before needing to be charged up. Comfort wise.... acceptable, but if I were running off the mains, I'd be bumping up the humidity as I feel it was *barely* enough. Tonight I'm going to set the humidifier to 2 and see how that goes. I am charging the Jackery, just to make sure I make it through a complete night. If it uses less than half again, I'll run it for a second night without charging, just to make sure the gauge isn't lying to me! :) One never knows with consumer electronics.
 

elricfate

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Relative indeed. Unfortunately, they give no specifics at all in the description and so we are "assuming" it is more efficient. There is no guaranty it will be, and it will also depend on the quality of the inverter we are comparing it to. To me, that sounds like an awful lot of money to pay for "possibly" being more efficient, especially if you find it's only marginally better or worse, poor design/components were used and it ends up being no better than the built in inverter.

So last night was weird for me. S10 set with humidifier to 1, I went to bed at 12:15 am only to suffer with waking up every 30 minutes or so until 5 am. Then I was wide awake and thought I would tough it out until 7:15 am. When 7:15 rolled around I thought I'd make it 8:15 am to give me a solid 8 hours on the Jackery. I woke up at 10:15 <groan> so I had a full 10 hours of cpap with the humidifier set to 1 and a plain hose. I still had 60% left on the Jackery, so it would appear it's good for 2 nights before needing to be charged up. Comfort wise.... acceptable, but if I were running off the mains, I'd be bumping up the humidity as I feel it was *barely* enough. Tonight I'm going to set the humidifier to 2 and see how that goes. I am charging the Jackery, just to make sure I make it through a complete night. If it uses less than half again, I'll run it for a second night without charging, just to make sure the gauge isn't lying to me! :) One never knows with consumer electronics.
Exactly how I power mine, DC to DC stepup from 12v to 24v. I have a pair of Battery Power Solutions C-100s (97.68wh) in a bag, with a 2 into 1 DC cable, those going into the stepup convertor that goes into the S9 (I can usually get three, 6 - 7 hour nights, pressure at 10, no humidifier). I recently picked up a 280wh Rockpals "solar generator" and a 100w panel to see just how long I can extend my trip by packing those into one of the panniers to use.
Don't forget, using the two battery packs I have, the Resmed S9 without the humidification chamber attached or heated hose, and running it using the 12-24V step up convertor, I get three full nights before the packs are completely dead. That isn't an estimate or a calculated load average, that's three times I've gone out to the mountain and slept with that setup. I bet I can eke out at least another night with the Rockpals pack I picked up if it's anywhere near as efficient.

I still say that if you're doing any kind of camp and ride, you should just be charging the pack while you ride from place to place, which would basically extend your ability to utilize it to near infinite. I only got the solar panel for funsies. :)
 

kaptain_zero

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Those battery packs cost about $785 for two here. My Jackery was only $625ish and has double the energy storage and the ability to do 120v on top of 12v (prices are in Kanuckistan dollars). The charging up bit can be done from the bike in my case too, but I was thinking more along the line of a longer stay in one place, in which case I would use some other manner of charging such as a gas/petrol station or such. Solar charging is not practical.... it takes too long, requires perfect, all day sunlight and the panels are too large to carry on a motorcycle. I also suspect some of us have more delicate sinuses.... I *can* survive one night without a humidifier, but I don't think I could do it two nights in a row. With those two battery packs, one night with level 1 humidification would drain both of them. I suspect those batteries are not using a step up transformer but rather just switch the way they are wired up. The ones I can buy here are either 12v or 24v and it's just a matter of wiring all the cells in series (24v) or two smaller series packs then wired in parallel (12v). The cells will generate slightly more voltage than needed when fully charged and use a buck converter to scrub off the excess voltage.

4 Lithium Ion cells in series will have a nominal voltage of 14.4v and when fully charged 16.8v. 8 cells in series give you a nominal 28.8 or 33.6v when fully charged. Two 4 cell series packs wired in parallel will give you the same voltage with twice the Ah and all 8 cells in series will give you half the Ah but still have the same amount of watts. A well made switching buck converter would be quite efficient when reducing the voltage to what is required. Using a boost converter to raise the voltage would be less efficient.
 

elricfate

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Those battery packs cost about $785 for two here. My Jackery was only $625ish and has double the energy storage and the ability to do 120v on top of 12v (prices are in Kanuckistan dollars). The charging up bit can be done from the bike in my case too, but I was thinking more along the line of a longer stay in one place, in which case I would use some other manner of charging such as a gas/petrol station or such. Solar charging is not practical.... it takes too long, requires perfect, all day sunlight and the panels are too large to carry on a motorcycle. I also suspect some of us have more delicate sinuses.... I *can* survive one night without a humidifier, but I don't think I could do it two nights in a row. With those two battery packs, one night with level 1 humidification would drain both of them. I suspect those batteries are not using a step up transformer but rather just switch the way they are wired up. The ones I can buy here are either 12v or 24v and it's just a matter of wiring all the cells in series (24v) or two smaller series packs then wired in parallel (12v). The cells will generate slightly more voltage than needed when fully charged and use a buck converter to scrub off the excess voltage.
You suspect incorrectly. I have a two into one cable that runs both 12v packs into one single 12v output, that single 12v output goes into the input of the step up, out comes 24v on the other end. I've said that a couple times, but let me repeat it, they're just 12v output packs like any other, except that in order to reach at least a 200wh capacity, there's two of them. The 2 into 1 cable only allows for even draining of both packs together in parallel, but that cable feeds into a step up. That's neither here nor there, though, I was just trying to help make statements to prove long term usage anecdotally via my own experience. If you want to refute it, that's fine, but don't refute the actual setup, please. Those packs that I am speaking from experience about are what I used before these "solar generators" (terrible nomenclature) became a thing, for several years, and can probably use for several years yet given that liquidity begins after a 500 charge/discharge cycle in the li-poly packs contained in these, vs the li-ion 18650 cells in the Rockpals I have. Additionally there are lIfepo4 packs floating around out there that would have even greater longevity.

Also I use it during the summer when I camp, humidity in Missouri in the summer is close to 90% most evenings. I don't need the humidifier in those circumstances, even with the compression of the air drawing out humidity, it's still more than good enough. Even while drunk and drying out my sinuses, it's still enough. So from my own experience, take what you want. Enjoy your testing.
 

Cantab

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I ran my Airsense 10 last night without the heated tube and Humidity at 1 the PS-45 still only did 5hrs so no gain .

Next thing to try is no humidity but still have water in the chamber.

I checked my OSCAR readings and there didn't seem to be any large air leaks while using the PS-45.
 

kaptain_zero

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That's too bad @Cantab, you *should* get 10 hrs without the humidifier. I should point out that Resmed also has a portable CPAP machine for travelling that has a special hose/gel canister to fit a couple of their masks where the gel absorbs the moisture from your breath and recycles it. Alas, it's hard to tell from the pictures I have seen, but it looks like it uses a proprietary hose connection, thus locking you into getting their travel unit. I was considering trying to get just the canister/hose and see if I could modify it to fit a regular hose (if needed) but using my own humidifier on 2 is more than good enough for me. I'll post a photo of it after this post. I should also point out that the gel canisters have a 30 day lifetime, so that would add to the cost of use, but they are not that expensive and for a few trips during a summer, it would be an acceptable option.

My test last night resulted in the same 40% used with humidifier set to 2, but it was only 8 hrs instead of 10 hrs when I used humidity setting 1.
So, I'm going to use it again tonight at the same level 2 setting and see if I can get another night without charging. If it works, I'll be happy.

@elricfate I misunderstood you, I though your had 12v/24v switching on each of the battery packs. The ones I have found here were either 12v OR 24v.

So, if you have two 12v packs and combine them with a harness, why use a step up device, just use a series harness and avoid any conversion losses?

The important thing is that we have what works for our individual situations. What I have appears to work for me, what you have works for you, but what @Cantab has, appears to be marginal for his purpose. We'll have to keep on trying to make his setup work while throwing as little money at the problem as we can.
 

Cantab

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