B
ballisticexchris
Guest
Actually makes perfect sense. A re-flash along with a tunable PCM on the dyno, will add substantial horsepower and rideability.
Arrow headers vs stock de-cat
- Thread starter lukasteam
- Start date
doc187
Active Member
The flash doesn't add more fule just changes the curve and decreases engine breaking. If you have a free flowing exhaust you need more fule. That's what the power commander is for.
tallpaul
Well-Known Member
The reflash does add fuel. That's how engine braking is altered. Instead of just cutting the injectors on closed throttle it adds fuel to give a little power from the cylinders which you discern as reduced engine braking.
doc187
Active Member
But it doesn't drastically add fule throughout the rev range. That's what I meant by it smooths things out. I'm not an expert or a tuner. I was just trying to explain why you still need a piggyback with the flash of running a full exhaust. If you don't it will still be too lean even with a flash. Now it's probably possible to address that with a flash but that's not what you generally get with a mail on ecu flash.
MattR
Well-Known Member
I’ve had my zx14r flashed on the Dyno. The tuner is able to do things with the ecu that can’t be done with a PCV. Raise rev limit, lower fan cut in temp, remove lambda so that each cylinder can be individually tuned for both fuel and ignition, add or remove any amount of fuel depending on what is required, remap tour mode for economy whilst mapping sports mode for performance, map secondary throttle flaps for each gear or even program ecu for drag starts so that you can pin the throttle with the clutch in and in first gear then feed in the clutch with the ecu feeding in power according to the traction control and abs limiting wheelies and wheelspin. ECU flashing combined with Dyno is the way to go. No need for PCV and generic maps.
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ord13
Well-Known Member
What's the point to have little power from cylinders which don't deliver power because throttle closed ?...
... and just to make everyone agree or not about the relevance of mounting a PCV in addition to a flashed ECU :
I tried with PCV and without PCV, and with it is better.
Not more complicated
MattR
Well-Known Member
All the PCV does is try to fool the ecu into adjusting fuelling to an artificial setting. If the ecu is flashed correctly it is far more accurate and flexible. It can change mapping according to gears and change ignition mapping which the PCV can’t do. If you have found your bike runs better with a PCV it’s because your ecu wasn’t flashed properly. Another advantage to flashing the ecu is that you can disable the lambda sensor and accurately map fuelling instead of having the ecu map fighting against the lambda sensor which on bikes are not very flexible. They are not wide band sensors like on cars.
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ord13
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely wrong about the fuel managing of the OEM ECU, it's the reason why the PCV is more flexible to do that.
It's not theory, it's what I did and what the résult was, no more no less.
But maybe my ECU is badly flashed, I cannot know, I'm not a japanese engineer...
It's not theory, it's what I did and what the résult was, no more no less.
But maybe my ECU is badly flashed, I cannot know, I'm not a japanese engineer...
I believe there is a difference between a reflash and actually having it set up on a rolling road. Also if the ignition is adjusted that will make the biggest difference. An analogy i will use is this. Modern fighter planes could not fly properly without a computer adjusting everything. ECU's are designed to save fuel, noise regs etc not to make the engine maximise its potential.You are absolutely wrong about the fuel managing of the OEM ECU, it's the reason why the PCV is more flexible to do that.
It's not theory, it's what I did and what the résult was, no more no less.
But maybe my ECU is badly flashed, I cannot know, I'm not a japanese engineer...
Hi all, new to group so I thought for my first post I’d share my experience with exhausts mapping with the Super10.
I recently fitted a full Arrow system and a K&N. It immediately was difficult to ride at low speeds with the engine hunting on and off on a constant throttle. Also when using large amounts of throttle from about 3-4k revs there was a lag in delivery and it was best to wind off the throttle and wind it back on again to “bring up” the power. This was expected for the changes I made. I pondered getting it dyno/re-mapped or going the PCV with Auto tune. Trouble is you’re in for about £600-£700 for the PCV route and the dyno is about £400. The advantage of the PCV is you can put it back to standard if you want to sell the bike later, it will also adapt if you want to change the baffles (eg remove) for a while. A re-map cannot adapt.
I opted in the end to get a one off set up on the dyno. Results are very good response is as smooth as a whistle now. PCR run a BSB team and do the tuning for them, so I think they know what they are doing. Dyno Chart attached. We speculated that if the Db killer was removed it might reach 100bhp.
I found out later that you don’t need autotune for the XT1200 PCV because it comes with an O2 adjuster which does more or less the same thing as the autotune. It’s therefore about the same price as the dyno set up and worth considering if you want to do more adjustments or change your setup later on.
BTW just to throw my lot in, I agree with those saying there’s no point in getting a PCV and doing a re-map that’s the same job twice, it’s a simple fact.
I recently fitted a full Arrow system and a K&N. It immediately was difficult to ride at low speeds with the engine hunting on and off on a constant throttle. Also when using large amounts of throttle from about 3-4k revs there was a lag in delivery and it was best to wind off the throttle and wind it back on again to “bring up” the power. This was expected for the changes I made. I pondered getting it dyno/re-mapped or going the PCV with Auto tune. Trouble is you’re in for about £600-£700 for the PCV route and the dyno is about £400. The advantage of the PCV is you can put it back to standard if you want to sell the bike later, it will also adapt if you want to change the baffles (eg remove) for a while. A re-map cannot adapt.
I opted in the end to get a one off set up on the dyno. Results are very good response is as smooth as a whistle now. PCR run a BSB team and do the tuning for them, so I think they know what they are doing. Dyno Chart attached. We speculated that if the Db killer was removed it might reach 100bhp.
I found out later that you don’t need autotune for the XT1200 PCV because it comes with an O2 adjuster which does more or less the same thing as the autotune. It’s therefore about the same price as the dyno set up and worth considering if you want to do more adjustments or change your setup later on.
BTW just to throw my lot in, I agree with those saying there’s no point in getting a PCV and doing a re-map that’s the same job twice, it’s a simple fact.
A remap can alter the ignition aswell.
Im getting the same figures as you with a end can and remap. I would have thought you would be closer to 100 bhp
ord13
Well-Known Member
Mmhh... not at all, O2 adjusting has never remapped a FI, sry.
You didn't tried the PCV on your bike, so you don't really know what you're talking about, THAT is a simple fact.
MattR
Well-Known Member
Racing teams don’t use PCVs. They use remaps. Fact
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ord13
Well-Known Member
Racing teams use racing motorcycles, stop here plz before becoming completely ridiculous.
Last edited:
It's simple engineering you clearly don't understand or know what you're talking about. I have used PCV with auto tune on two other bikes. PC's have been aorund since the 70s it's a well known technology with a long history. The dyno tuners often fit them for ease of adjustment and they are used in racing.
It can depend on how the dyno is calibrated, not all dynos are the same. The bike pulls very cleanly and even from low revs all the way through to the top.
I get that and well put. And it also depends on if its just the fueling which has been remapped or the ignition aswell.
ord13
Well-Known Member
So you clearly are an engineer what it is true i'm not, and Wow ! what a huge background is yours !
...and Wow the second ! you've had TWO bikes before !...
Ok you win, sry for all, I sincerely apologize.
jrusell
Well-Known Member
Info from 2 wheel dynoworks website
why-is-ecu-flashing-better
UNCATEGORIZEDWHY IS ECU FLASHING BETTER THAN USING A “PIGGYBACK” FUEL CONTROLLER?
07MAY
This is going to be a long one, but we think that it is absolutely essential that anyone looking to maximize their motorcycle’s performance (and their own personal riding enjoyment) understand how to best tune and dial in their bike.
PLEASE, unless there is no quality ECU flashing available for your bike, don’t waste your money on a Power Commander, Bazzaz or any other piggyback style fuel controller! Quite simply, they’re a waste of money when there’s total control over the mapping in the stock ECU for most modern bikes on the market. Let’s dive into the FACTS!
Until the late 2000’s, there simply wasn’t access to the mapping in stock ECU’s, so a piggyback fuel controller (a device that intercepts and taps into the fuel injectors, throttle position sensor, and sometimes several other fuel injection components) had to be used to tune and dial in a motorcycle. The single most popular piggyback fuel controller on the market is the Power Commander, but many others exist on the market (Bazzaz, RapidBike, EJK, etc). Nels, and our technicians, have installed THOUSANDS of these piggyback fuel controllers on motorcycles over the past decade or so, because they’re a great tool for an experienced and qualified tuner to use when adjusting fuel, and sometimes ignition timing, mapping on a dyno when no other solutions are/were available. They allow for adjustment of the TPS (throttle position) vs RPM fuel mapping with a high level of resolution for most applications. Depending on the bike, they usually cost anywhere between $320 and a whopping $1250, take 1-3 hours to properly install inline with the bike’s fuel injection, and sometimes ignition, system. Before ECU flashing, they were the best solution on the market!
Let’s fast forward to the modern era of motorcycle fuel injection systems and emissions compliance! Even on a relatively simple fuel injection system, like the one used on a Yamaha FZ/MT-07, Power Commanders, and every other piggyback fuel controller, simply doesn’t cut it anymore. They don’t allow for adjustment of the individual IAP vs RPM and TPS v RPM tables, which the ECU references and weights differently depending on the particular load, throttle, and engine speed (RPM) data inputs that are constantly being referenced by the fuel mapping algorithms. Without specific control over both sets of fuel mapping tables, some of the lighter throttle/load points simply can’t be properly tuned. This is part of the reason why most Power Commander users for these bikes still experience significant popping/backfiring on deceleration and light throttle transition with aftermarket intake/exhaust systems!
These bikes (we’re still talking about a simple FZ/MT-07) also suffer from a massive fuel cut on deceleration, which is programmed directly into the stock ECU by Yamaha for emissions compliance. In fact, almost all modern fuel injected motorcycles have deceleration fuel cuts! Instead of gradually increasing/decreasing fuel injector pulse width (or duty cycle depending on the system) with engine RPM, throttle position and/or engine load like a volume knob, this emissions feature simply shuts off the fuel injectors entirely the moment you roll off the throttle like a light switch. This is the primary contributor to most bike’s massively “twitchy” or “jerky” throttle transitions, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to address this with ANY piggyback system. It MUST be disabled through flashing the ECU.
All modern, liquid cooled, fuel injected bikes also suffer from much higher than optimal engine temperatures. Again, this is done for emissions purposes. Higher cylinder temperatures directly increase fuel combustion temperatures, and this produces a more “complete” or “clean” burn of the fuel. This sounds great on paper, but in reality these increased combustion temperatures also increase the risk of pre-detonation (knocking) and shorten the overall life of the internal engine components. Most cooling fans aren’t engaged by the ECU until 215-220 degrees Fahrenheit, and this, once again, CANNOT be adjusted through any piggyback system on the market. They CAN ONLY be adjusted through flashing the ECU. Our cooling fan engagement parameters, along with our custom fuel and ignition mapping that result in an overall cooler combustion, keep the engine operating right around 200 degrees Fahrenheit during almost all riding conditions!
All of those parameters, emissions features, and specific fuel/ignition maps can only be specifically modified via proper ECU flashing, and that’s on a system as simplistic as an FZ/MT-07! On almost all manufacturer’s flagship TBW (Throttle-By-Wire) model bikes, there are MANY more emissions compliance restrictions placed in the stock ECU mapping that MASSIVELY limit engine performance. Manufacturers have gone as far as to create individual gear-based restrictions in both the electronic throttle AND ignition timing mapping on many of these bikes. These restrictions are so intrusive that on a 2016+ Kawasaki ZX10R, the upper gears have a nearly FIFTY HORSEPOWER restriction at the top of the RPM range! When you’re at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) in 5th gear on these bikes, the electronic throttle mapping ignores your wrist’s throttle input and begins to close the throttle plates by over 30%. Not only are all of these electronic throttle mapping systems massively restricted, but they also leave a LOT to be desired in terms of the smoothness of the throttle plate(s) opening and power delivery to the wheels. Once again (you guessed it), there isn’t a piggyback system on the market capable of modifying the electronic throttle mapping built into these modern ECU’s.
Let’s pretend that none of those marks against piggyback controllers existed. Even if you could ignore ALL of those issues, you still have to swallow the fact that you’re going to spend an hour or two installing a system that taps into the stock wiring harness/connectors and is, sadly, prone to eventual failure, AND when these controllers do fail, you’re stuck on the side of the road until you can remove the unit from the bike. Even IF you’re willing to ignore the potential failure risk of an aftermarket fuel controller, you still have to either A) have the mapping dialed in by an experienced tuner on a dyno, OR B) rely on the generic mapping you can find online. Let’s put it this way: if the mapping available online was truly dialed in for a specific motorcycle and intake/exhaust system, it wouldn’t be available for free. At best, the mapping you can find on Power Commander’s website is at least better than stock for your specific bike’s setup. At worst, it’s even further from optimal than the stock mapping, which we sadly see ALL THE TIME on our dyno.
All of our fuel and ignition mapping is built SPECIFICALLY for each motorcycle’s intake/exhaust system combo on the main ONE of our THREE dynos, by Nels, who now has over 105,000 runs logged on our primary dyno AND has been tuning motorcycles for over a decade. Because of all of the data compiled from thousands of motorcycles with different intake/exhaust system combinations, we have mapping as perfectly dialed in as possible for virtually every specific intake/exhaust combination on all of the motorcycles that we support. We add to this mapping database every single day, thanks to our great relationships with our local dealer network, major distributors, exhaust manufacturers, and our fantastic customers! We also routinely test our mapping for accuracy, and, thanks to the increasingly tight manufacturing tolerances from most of the major motorcycle manufacturers, our mapping is almost always 97-98% perfect.
If all of those reasons STILL somehow don’t convince you that a Power Commander is, in almost every scenario for a modern motorcycle, the WRONG method of tuning for your bike…consider this. Almost all of our ECU flashing services are only $250. That’s $70 less than the cheapest Power Commander V. At the end of the day, our ECU flash will provide you with a SMOOTHER throttle response, INCREASED PERFORMANCE and COOLER operating temperatures throughout the entire RPM range than any piggyback controller ever can…for less money.
why-is-ecu-flashing-better
UNCATEGORIZEDWHY IS ECU FLASHING BETTER THAN USING A “PIGGYBACK” FUEL CONTROLLER?
07MAY
This is going to be a long one, but we think that it is absolutely essential that anyone looking to maximize their motorcycle’s performance (and their own personal riding enjoyment) understand how to best tune and dial in their bike.
PLEASE, unless there is no quality ECU flashing available for your bike, don’t waste your money on a Power Commander, Bazzaz or any other piggyback style fuel controller! Quite simply, they’re a waste of money when there’s total control over the mapping in the stock ECU for most modern bikes on the market. Let’s dive into the FACTS!
Until the late 2000’s, there simply wasn’t access to the mapping in stock ECU’s, so a piggyback fuel controller (a device that intercepts and taps into the fuel injectors, throttle position sensor, and sometimes several other fuel injection components) had to be used to tune and dial in a motorcycle. The single most popular piggyback fuel controller on the market is the Power Commander, but many others exist on the market (Bazzaz, RapidBike, EJK, etc). Nels, and our technicians, have installed THOUSANDS of these piggyback fuel controllers on motorcycles over the past decade or so, because they’re a great tool for an experienced and qualified tuner to use when adjusting fuel, and sometimes ignition timing, mapping on a dyno when no other solutions are/were available. They allow for adjustment of the TPS (throttle position) vs RPM fuel mapping with a high level of resolution for most applications. Depending on the bike, they usually cost anywhere between $320 and a whopping $1250, take 1-3 hours to properly install inline with the bike’s fuel injection, and sometimes ignition, system. Before ECU flashing, they were the best solution on the market!
Let’s fast forward to the modern era of motorcycle fuel injection systems and emissions compliance! Even on a relatively simple fuel injection system, like the one used on a Yamaha FZ/MT-07, Power Commanders, and every other piggyback fuel controller, simply doesn’t cut it anymore. They don’t allow for adjustment of the individual IAP vs RPM and TPS v RPM tables, which the ECU references and weights differently depending on the particular load, throttle, and engine speed (RPM) data inputs that are constantly being referenced by the fuel mapping algorithms. Without specific control over both sets of fuel mapping tables, some of the lighter throttle/load points simply can’t be properly tuned. This is part of the reason why most Power Commander users for these bikes still experience significant popping/backfiring on deceleration and light throttle transition with aftermarket intake/exhaust systems!
These bikes (we’re still talking about a simple FZ/MT-07) also suffer from a massive fuel cut on deceleration, which is programmed directly into the stock ECU by Yamaha for emissions compliance. In fact, almost all modern fuel injected motorcycles have deceleration fuel cuts! Instead of gradually increasing/decreasing fuel injector pulse width (or duty cycle depending on the system) with engine RPM, throttle position and/or engine load like a volume knob, this emissions feature simply shuts off the fuel injectors entirely the moment you roll off the throttle like a light switch. This is the primary contributor to most bike’s massively “twitchy” or “jerky” throttle transitions, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to address this with ANY piggyback system. It MUST be disabled through flashing the ECU.
All modern, liquid cooled, fuel injected bikes also suffer from much higher than optimal engine temperatures. Again, this is done for emissions purposes. Higher cylinder temperatures directly increase fuel combustion temperatures, and this produces a more “complete” or “clean” burn of the fuel. This sounds great on paper, but in reality these increased combustion temperatures also increase the risk of pre-detonation (knocking) and shorten the overall life of the internal engine components. Most cooling fans aren’t engaged by the ECU until 215-220 degrees Fahrenheit, and this, once again, CANNOT be adjusted through any piggyback system on the market. They CAN ONLY be adjusted through flashing the ECU. Our cooling fan engagement parameters, along with our custom fuel and ignition mapping that result in an overall cooler combustion, keep the engine operating right around 200 degrees Fahrenheit during almost all riding conditions!
All of those parameters, emissions features, and specific fuel/ignition maps can only be specifically modified via proper ECU flashing, and that’s on a system as simplistic as an FZ/MT-07! On almost all manufacturer’s flagship TBW (Throttle-By-Wire) model bikes, there are MANY more emissions compliance restrictions placed in the stock ECU mapping that MASSIVELY limit engine performance. Manufacturers have gone as far as to create individual gear-based restrictions in both the electronic throttle AND ignition timing mapping on many of these bikes. These restrictions are so intrusive that on a 2016+ Kawasaki ZX10R, the upper gears have a nearly FIFTY HORSEPOWER restriction at the top of the RPM range! When you’re at WOT (Wide Open Throttle) in 5th gear on these bikes, the electronic throttle mapping ignores your wrist’s throttle input and begins to close the throttle plates by over 30%. Not only are all of these electronic throttle mapping systems massively restricted, but they also leave a LOT to be desired in terms of the smoothness of the throttle plate(s) opening and power delivery to the wheels. Once again (you guessed it), there isn’t a piggyback system on the market capable of modifying the electronic throttle mapping built into these modern ECU’s.
Let’s pretend that none of those marks against piggyback controllers existed. Even if you could ignore ALL of those issues, you still have to swallow the fact that you’re going to spend an hour or two installing a system that taps into the stock wiring harness/connectors and is, sadly, prone to eventual failure, AND when these controllers do fail, you’re stuck on the side of the road until you can remove the unit from the bike. Even IF you’re willing to ignore the potential failure risk of an aftermarket fuel controller, you still have to either A) have the mapping dialed in by an experienced tuner on a dyno, OR B) rely on the generic mapping you can find online. Let’s put it this way: if the mapping available online was truly dialed in for a specific motorcycle and intake/exhaust system, it wouldn’t be available for free. At best, the mapping you can find on Power Commander’s website is at least better than stock for your specific bike’s setup. At worst, it’s even further from optimal than the stock mapping, which we sadly see ALL THE TIME on our dyno.
All of our fuel and ignition mapping is built SPECIFICALLY for each motorcycle’s intake/exhaust system combo on the main ONE of our THREE dynos, by Nels, who now has over 105,000 runs logged on our primary dyno AND has been tuning motorcycles for over a decade. Because of all of the data compiled from thousands of motorcycles with different intake/exhaust system combinations, we have mapping as perfectly dialed in as possible for virtually every specific intake/exhaust combination on all of the motorcycles that we support. We add to this mapping database every single day, thanks to our great relationships with our local dealer network, major distributors, exhaust manufacturers, and our fantastic customers! We also routinely test our mapping for accuracy, and, thanks to the increasingly tight manufacturing tolerances from most of the major motorcycle manufacturers, our mapping is almost always 97-98% perfect.
If all of those reasons STILL somehow don’t convince you that a Power Commander is, in almost every scenario for a modern motorcycle, the WRONG method of tuning for your bike…consider this. Almost all of our ECU flashing services are only $250. That’s $70 less than the cheapest Power Commander V. At the end of the day, our ECU flash will provide you with a SMOOTHER throttle response, INCREASED PERFORMANCE and COOLER operating temperatures throughout the entire RPM range than any piggyback controller ever can…for less money.