Life! (corona virus, non informative, non hysterical post)

Mak10 · May 17, 2020

I can see your arguments, I don’t think you are going to get the general public to cooperate. You can choose to light up a cigarette and smoke or not. Society can have duly elected officials regulate “smoking” through laws and ordinances. As long as those laws and ordinances are in harmony with ones constitutional rights. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

However contracting a virus is not a choice. To say one cannot go fishing, alone, in a boat was a knee jerk reaction, not a logical way to lessen any risk of contracting a virus.
It doesn’t help when the goal posts keep getting shifted either. People were told the stay at home orders were to flatten the curve, not overwhelm the hospital’s.

As far as polls and surveys being deemed the will of the people? No flaws in polls? Hillary would be president, if that held true. Polls and surveys are not the way we govern ourselves. This would lead to a mob culture.

Three months ago, we were told masks didn’t do any good. Today they are required. What studies and clinical trials have there been in those three months?

I don’t disagree that common sense should prevail. But if that was the case we wouldn’t need laws, rules or government. Nobody would ever smoke,
Be careful what you wish for in your search for security. Giving up your liberties for a brief moment of security is a bad choice.

Contrary to the media, the sky is not falling. This too shall pass. Let’s not destroy our world out of fear.

SHUMBA · May 17, 2020

ballisticexchris said:
I do not see the "blanket orders" for prevention fear based at all. I look at them as common sense. Unfortunately common sense it is running short in our society. Even with all the scientific proof of this being one of the most serious viruses found, humans are not listening.

There are even members right here on this and other public forums planning on crossing state lines on motorcycles and putting themselves and others at unnecessary risk. Stopping at eateries, gas stations, national parks, group gatherings etc. All in the name of having fun. Never mind that states and smart humans are discouraging interstate travel for pleasure. The only thing we can hope for is that none of these "pleasure seeking" travelers have the virus or contract it and spread it.

It's bad enough we got idiots here locally not using good judgement or prudence. Too bad it's a nationwide/worldwide problem of dimwits drenched in their self righteous attitudes.

Good points.
SHUMBA

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fac191 · May 17, 2020

OX-34 said:
You mention your rights.

I think much of this is covered by the Fourteenth Amendment. Safer cars and roads, not taking a dump in the streets, making sure that icecream contains a reasonable proportion of butter fat, that sort of thing. That's why and how the government has a right and responsibility to keep the populace safe. The Fourteenth.

Everybody dies, but like it or not, your Government is obliged to at least help those who don't want to die to have some safeguards against those that don't care if they kill them.

Along with free speech, the right to gather is indeed covered by the Constitution, specifically by the First Amendment. I'd mention that balaclava-wearing dudes with AK-47s are using the First to enforce their view of the Second Amendment, but only because you mentioned the constitution first. They don't appear to support anyone else's rights under the First to speak against the Second, though. Don't have to, not gonna.

Totes agree. Can't think of any reputable source that has OVERSTATED the cases, though. Whatever you think, it is worse than you think. If it doesn't end up as bad as the experts stated, that will because more people did it right than did it wrong, no matter how much the wrong yabbered on about their right.

Your first assertion is most definitely going to be correct whilst so ever masses of people mass to protest at about not being able to mass. Many jurisdictions are already looking back at a time where they used to have COVID-19, but it has already disappeared. Other jurisdictions are just het up about being allowed to spread the virus which is a clear consequence of inadequate or downright belligerent refusal to adhere to efficacious risk mitigation.

It is hardest for those remote from major COVID-19 outbreaks to accept the same level of restrictions present in the hot zones. Fair enough. But just a few months ago the red Zombie Apocalypse dots were not speckled all over the US like they are now. Give it time and give it Brownian Motion and you may soon be on the front line after all. Congrats. Other jurisdictions took the 'we're all in the same boat' approach and, well, it actually works better than the 'me-me-me bing bing bing' approach.

Too true. But not all of those causes of death can be traced from one person to another with an R0 of greater than 1.0.

The 'flu is bad, bubbles along and adding up a few year's tally may claim the lives of as many Americans as the last few months died from COVID-19 in the USA. Not to mention the next few months. I'd suggest you still get the 'fluvax but SARS-CoV-2 has a much higher R0. Much.

Heart disease generally comes down to bad genes or too much pizza or smoking, that kind of thing. People with heart disease don't need to distance, they can't give it to anyone currently alive.

I've looked but can't find any cases where a little bingle in a car park causes the other car to crash into a bus, then two or three days later T-Bone a Toyota before finally running into a tree, all lonely and upside down, hoses leaking and battery flat. Car accidents don't have R0s. I'm sure if 2 cars out of every 100 killed their occupants every month somebody would do something about it. Oh yeah, the Fourteenth. Car crashes are not COVID-like in their propagation.

Cancer. Sure cervical cancer is now recognised as largely an STI, but most cancers can't be given to other people. Smoke-free zones have been mentioned above (Fourteenth).
People may and do die in great numbers from cancer, but they don't die from a picketing gatherer giving it to them, mask or no mask.

Malaria? Seriously? That's a mosquito. I don't like mosquitoes. I don't like mosquitoes at all.(DJT April 19th 2020). Malaria kills hundreds of thousands of people in the world every year. Not sure of the relevance here in the context of your post, with reference to your rights etc. Malaria is no chart topper in the USA dat's fer shure. Although you need humans around for malaria to kill humans, humans don't give malaria to humans, unlike COVID-19.

Not much mention of other people's rights...

They should make you President.

Mak10 · May 17, 2020

So, Ox-34, what are your solutions for this pandemic? It’s easy to criticize, politics for not doing enough. Just what should everyone be doing?

Checkswrecks · May 17, 2020

Mak10 said:
So, Ox-34, what are your solutions for this pandemic? It’s easy to criticize, politics for not doing enough. Just what should everyone be doing?

HA!
Could we ever upset the applecart with some political jokes to respond to that.

But let's not.

tntmo · May 17, 2020

ballisticexchris said:
There are even members right here on this and other public forums planning on crossing state lines on motorcycles and putting themselves and others at unnecessary risk. Stopping at eateries, gas stations, national parks, group gatherings etc. All in the name of having fun. Never mind that states and smart humans are discouraging interstate travel for pleasure. The only thing we can hope for is that none of these "pleasure seeking" travelers have the virus or contract it and spread it.

Isn't riding a motorcycle itself an unnecessary risk? All in the name of having fun? We can't live a life that is 100% risk averse. Most people see the risk, decide for themselves if it's a risk worth taking and also put into place mitigation to reduce it.

This applies to riding and to our current world events.

ballisticexchris · May 17, 2020

tntmo said:
Isn't riding a motorcycle itself an unnecessary risk? All in the name of having fun? We can't live a life that is 100% risk averse. Most people see the risk, decide for themselves if it's a risk worth taking and also put into place mitigation to reduce it.

This applies to riding and to our current world events.

It is even more of a risk now just as driving for pleasure is. What's frightening is instead of the risk only being to the rider, now he/she is risking many more people around them. I'm just going off what I see around me.

For all I know, these guys that are on the forums bragging about sticking their nose up at everyone and riding anyway could be just to get a reaction. Anyone with a rational state of mind would rethink the decision of risking the lives of others instead of attitude of not caring about others.

AusTexS10 · May 17, 2020

ballisticexchris said:
It is even more of a risk now just as driving for pleasure is. What's frightening is instead of the risk only being to the rider, now he/she is risking many more people around them. I'm just going off what I see around me.

For all I know, these guys that are on the forums bragging about sticking their nose up at everyone and riding anyway could be just to get a reaction. Anyone with a rational state of mind would rethink the decision of risking the lives of others instead of attitude of not caring about others.

Early on, an infectious disease expert (I don't recall his name, but he wasn't in Trump's task force) said the best way to beat this thing is not so much to try to avoid getting infected, but to consciously avoid infecting others (hence, the masks). Really simple advice, when you think about it, plus it at least gives the appearance of caring about someone besides yourself (as stated in your closing comment, thank you).

fac191 · May 17, 2020

AusTexS10 said:
Early on, an infectious disease expert (I don't recall his name, but he wasn't in Trump's task force) said the best way to beat this thing is not so much to try to avoid getting infected, but to consciously avoid infecting others (hence, the masks). Really simple advice, when you think about it, plus it at least gives the appearance of caring about someone besides yourself (as stated in your closing comment, thank you).

But there were no masks available. Pretty dumb comment for him to make he should really know better.

ballisticexchris · May 17, 2020

fac191 said:
But there were no masks available. Pretty dumb comment for him to make he should really know better.

That is a 100% false statement. There have been masks and gloves available for everyone all along. The problem with shortages was never a factor. Just had to pay a little more.

SHUMBA · May 17, 2020

AusTexS10 said:
Early on, an infectious disease expert (I don't recall his name, but he wasn't in Trump's task force) said the best way to beat this thing is not so much to try to avoid getting infected, but to consciously avoid infecting others (hence, the masks). Really simple advice, when you think about it, plus it at least gives the appearance of caring about someone besides yourself (as stated in your closing comment, thank you).

Agree, and on another note, getting a flu shot not only protects you from some strains of flu, you are protecting others, perhaps people who are more susceptible to the flu along with those with health conditions.
In Ontario Canada the flu shot is free either at your local pharmacy or your family doctor.
SHUMBA

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AusTexS10 · May 17, 2020

OX-34 said:
Its not just about being risk averse. Riding a motorcycle is risky but we each make that decision for ourselves.

Motorcyclists usually come off second best in any, lets say incident. That may or may not require using up the local health resources, but lets leave that aside.

What is not the case in motorcycling, is that any sort of less than fatal accident does not lead to a propagation of more accidents. You don't fall off, tell granny about it and get her to do a wheely, she gets her nephews to give it a try and they pile-up on the freeway, while you go inside, have a lie down and stop breathing from your high-cervical spinal fracture.

It is absolutely nothing to do with the COVID-19 mathematics.

The comment from the expert was exactly correct. At the time that the face mask frenzy occurred, most people (by mathematical definition) wandering around the street or supermarket had absolutely no need to wear the mask. Period. They didn't have COVID. Did not need a mask.

The mask is to stop the infected from giving it to others. In the early days, again by definition, there were not many infected people.

Unfortunately the people who did not need masks quickly outstripped the local supplies and prevented those who needed a mask from getting one.

That is "Me-me-me bing bing bing' thinking.

Now there are more masks. Because of people trying so desperately not to do the right thing, just about everyone in the US could argue they need masks.

That was foreseeable, preventable and lamentable, unfortunately.

OX-34 - Thanks for your insightful response. If we had more insighful comments on the subject, as opposed to "inciteful," we might be a lot further along in the USA with taming the beast. In defense of the expert I cited, although he really needs no defense, I don't know that he even mentioned masks at the time, so I apologize if I appeared to put words in his mouth. Mostly he said, if individuals act like they have the disease (whether they do or don't) and do all they can to protect others from getting it from them, then we stand a much better chance of getting a pandemic under control. The reality is, no amount of equipment, medicine or cash will resolve this problem if we aren't willing to accept massive behavior modification. Years ago, our local college football team wore shirts saying "There's no I in Team." That is an atttitude we need to adopt.

Maybe better to let folks read what he said for themselves to hopefully grasp the logic - published March 14, 2020, about a month before Easter when our renowned medical expert president forecast it would all be over :

Pretend you already have coronavirus, advises health professor

‘Think about changing your behaviour so you don’t give it to somebody else’

www.independent.co.uk

TNRyder · May 18, 2020

Wow, just wow. I have read through this thread and the fear and hysteria drips from each paragraph.

Fear has been whipped by the media from the beginning. “We have to go into total lockdown to stop the spread”. Sadly, the lemming consumers of this crap just fall in line, lock their doors and hide.

I have a few questions. Please indulge for a moment before you go into a fit of rage and turn total keyboard warrior. I want you to know I am pissed to the max because politicians and a media with an agenda have driven this mass hysteria. People running across streets to stay clear of another. Masks on while riding in their cars.

Why wear a mask in your car when the virus IS NOT airborne?? Fauci even said the masks are not necessary except for close personal space interaction.

Watch the news people broadcasting closely. Why do they put on masks when they think cameras are rolling and remove them when they think they are not running?

UV light kills the virus in seconds, so why wear a mask in the sunshine?

Why are states bordering on insolvency pushing to keep their states closed for business?

Why is big business exempt from closing but not small business?

Why is it more essential for a journalist or television reporter to keep working to earn a paycheck and not a hair stylist or realtor?

Why is it that some people and their livelihoods are MORE essential than others?

Why is it that Sweden a country that did not go into full lock down, but put measures in place to protect their most vulnerable, ( elderly and people who have preexisting conditions) has experienced proportionally the same results as those countries with full lockdown?

Why did the CDC quit counting flu deaths in March?

Why was Covid -19 treatment given special status and hospitals that reported treatment for Covid care received special reimbursement as much as $30,000 for ventilator care?

Covid treatment and death reporting was encouraged and accuracy of reporting and verification was unnecessary, why??

If a person gets sick, recovers and it happens to have been Covid-19 does it really matter whether they had the test or not? If you test and later find out you did have it what is the value in knowing, bragging rights?

My friends mother passed last week in Michigan. She lived in assisted living and was 92. She died from old age. Her family had been restricted from any visitation since Covid lockdown. Now that she has passed, the facility informed the family they had to remove her personal effects and the restriction doesn’t apply now that she has passed. Is this logical?

Why can’t you get an actual figure for Covid infections, recoveries and casualties? Every government agency and media outlet has different numbers.

Why did the USS Comfort go to New York and Dock and less than two weeks later leave because they only treated 56 people?

Why did New York send people with confirmed Covid-19 who were nursing homes residents back to the nursing home for recovery and not to the USS Comfort? Why do something that caused infection to spread to a VULNERABLE population that resulted in the deaths of 75 tenants at one home?

The Covid-19 virus was first reported in Wuhan. Wuhan was in lockdown for 76 days. The rest of CHINA was in lockdown for 16-24 days...why? Our whole country was in lockdown for almost 60 days!! Where is the logical thinking?

I was watching a show on CNN just a couple days ago. They are touting and screaming “listen to the experts, listen to the scientists “. Why was Greta Thunberg a teenager whose claim to fame is “How dare you” is seated on this panel of experts?

Now after deaths for the entire month of March 2020 are reported, the results show that deaths in the US this March are 15% less than the average of the past four years! Why the hysteria from the media and the politicians? Is it about the virus...or an election?

Why is the Democrat convention moved back to August? Why are state governors bypassing legislators and ordering mail out ballots to “inactive and unregistered voters”?

Finally, I urge each of you to limit your news intake and critically think about what you are being told is news and not propaganda. Everyone on this list cares about our fellow inmates, family and friends. But there is a section of our society that only cares about power and control. Power over you and control of your behavior. Don’t bug the line that is being pushed about,”a NEW NORMAL”. If everyone buys this as a truism...then God help us because we deserve neither free thought, speech, nor liberty!

It’s time to think logically, question everything, and stand up and demand truth.

Steve

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tallpaul · May 18, 2020

Just touching solely on your last paragraph:

For logical thinking just read through OX-34's responses in this thread. He may be blunt but the logic stands up.

Question everything is always good, if the questions are good and the answers are understood.

Demanding the truth is what everyone has a right to expect, but unless you really understand the subject you will not know if you are getting the truth or something else that looks like the truth but isn't. Scientists aren't generally chasing votes, so I would suggest listening to a virology specialist with a good track record would be a good place to start. Ask your good questions but if you accept their credentials and they give you an answer that you don't like, would you ignore them?

pooh and xtine · May 18, 2020

I see where you're coming from although we need to be mindful that scientists and other experts always big themselves up and overstate the significance of the issue they’re expert on. It panders to their egos and it’s good business for them. Remember Year 2000 and the IT experts who made a fortune (and it was all a hoax)? People with common sense need to make policy decisions taking account of experts’ advice. Never let experts make policy decisions themselves: they’re not independent.

fac191 · May 18, 2020

pooh and xtine said:
I see where you're coming from although we need to be mindful that scientists and other experts always big themselves up and overstate the significance of the issue they’re expert on. It panders to their egos and it’s good business for them. Remember Year 2000 and the IT experts who made a fortune (and it was all a hoax)? People with common sense need to make policy decisions taking account of experts’ advice. Never let experts make policy decisions themselves: they’re not independent.

This is an observation on Human Nature and not meant to offend. We readily accept the words of gods with no proof or facts or truth. Faith in the belief is all you need. Yet something like this happens and all we expect is " The Truth " . The truth is whatever you are willing to believe. For many believers this virus came from god and they are happy to believe it as its an easy explanation. I think in these times we need faith in eachother as human beings. Politics is a dirty game with hidden agendas as we know so is inherently untrustworthy. Its us thats the problem, its how we are. Its us that need to change and maybe in another few hundred thousand years we will. I wish i could have faith in that. Hopefully this place we find ourselves in will make us reflect on what we actually are. Until we come to terms with that the Truth will always elude us.

Mak10 · May 18, 2020

It will do no good to debate. Keep yourselves safe. There’s excellent riding and memories to be had. Carry on with the fear shaming.

fac191 · May 18, 2020

OX-34 said:
Nissbird, I know I upset you by saying that no March deaths showed up in your graph that stopped in February - dark blue line - because nobody had yet died from COVID-19 in the UK. (attachment 65714)

I later said, just wait, there will be deaths. They will show up when the March and beyond data rolls around.

Good news, here are the deaths you were asking about. I don't have the skills to draw the graph like you did, but I have a pic from the site you used.

(source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/latest)

You can probably see now that the shape of the red COVID-19 deaths curve mirrors the blue 'All cause mortality' curve and well exceeds the last 5 years average deaths.

No conspiracy.

The most truthful uttering to ever to come from a politicians mouth was from Winston Churchill when he said " History will be kind to me as i intend to write it myself " . Nuff said.

SilverBullet · May 18, 2020

OX-34 said:
...I can't comment much about Y2K, apart from being jammed into the bull pens in Times Square and wondering if, at the stroke of midnight the planes were going to drop out of the sky along with the dropping ball (big, beautiful ball). Nothing happened, of course. There had been lots of speculation...

The average person had no idea of all the preventative measures that were done in preparation to Y2K. Software changes, firmware changes, process/procedure changes, equipment mothballed, equipment hard dates rolled back, etc. etc. The only speculation can be what would have happened if nothing was done? We will never know as all companies took action months/years in advance. We had no Y2K deniers/non believers doing nothing that I was aware of.

Now compare to this issue. Where would we be in the current USA curve if actions and preparation was actually done preventatively? Plenty of countries have shown better degrees of what it could have been. Here on this continent we will never know that as the ship has already sailed. Now we are left spending magnitudes upon magnitudes more time, effort, money, pain and loss on damage control and cleanup.

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SHUMBA · May 18, 2020

TNRyder said:
Wow, just wow. I have read through this thread and the fear and hysteria drips from each paragraph.

Fear has been whipped by the media from the beginning. “We have to go into total lockdown to stop the spread”. Sadly, the lemming consumers of this crap just fall in line, lock their doors and hide.

I have a few questions. Please indulge for a moment before you go into a fit of rage and turn total keyboard warrior. I want you to know I am pissed to the max because politicians and a media with an agenda have driven this mass hysteria. People running across streets to stay clear of another. Masks on while riding in their cars.

Why wear a mask in your car when the virus IS NOT airborne?? Fauci even said the masks are not necessary except for close personal space interaction.

Watch the news people broadcasting closely. Why do they put on masks when they think cameras are rolling and remove them when they think they are not running?

UV light kills the virus in seconds, so why wear a mask in the sunshine?

Why are states bordering on insolvency pushing to keep their states closed for business?

Why is big business exempt from closing but not small business?

Why is it more essential for a journalist or television reporter to keep working to earn a paycheck and not a hair stylist or realtor?

Why is it that some people and their livelihoods are MORE essential than others?

Why is it that Sweden a country that did not go into full lock down, but put measures in place to protect their most vulnerable, ( elderly and people who have preexisting conditions) has experienced proportionally the same results as those countries with full lockdown?

Why did the CDC quit counting flu deaths in March?

Why was Covid -19 treatment given special status and hospitals that reported treatment for Covid care received special reimbursement as much as $30,000 for ventilator care?

Covid treatment and death reporting was encouraged and accuracy of reporting and verification was unnecessary, why??

If a person gets sick, recovers and it happens to have been Covid-19 does it really matter whether they had the test or not? If you test and later find out you did have it what is the value in knowing, bragging rights?

My friends mother passed last week in Michigan. She lived in assisted living and was 92. She died from old age. Her family had been restricted from any visitation since Covid lockdown. Now that she has passed, the facility informed the family they had to remove her personal effects and the restriction doesn’t apply now that she has passed. Is this logical?

Why can’t you get an actual figure for Covid infections, recoveries and casualties? Every government agency and media outlet has different numbers.

Why did the USS Comfort go to New York and Dock and less than two weeks later leave because they only treated 56 people?

Why did New York send people with confirmed Covid-19 who were nursing homes residents back to the nursing home for recovery and not to the USS Comfort? Why do something that caused infection to spread to a VULNERABLE population that resulted in the deaths of 75 tenants at one home?

The Covid-19 virus was first reported in Wuhan. Wuhan was in lockdown for 76 days. The rest of CHINA was in lockdown for 16-24 days...why? Our whole country was in lockdown for almost 60 days!! Where is the logical thinking?

I was watching a show on CNN just a couple days ago. They are touting and screaming “listen to the experts, listen to the scientists “. Why was Greta Thunberg a teenager whose claim to fame is “How dare you” is seated on this panel of experts?

Now after deaths for the entire month of March 2020 are reported, the results show that deaths in the US this March are 15% less than the average of the past four years! Why the hysteria from the media and the politicians? Is it about the virus...or an election?

Why is the Democrat convention moved back to August? Why are state governors bypassing legislators and ordering mail out ballots to “inactive and unregistered voters”?

Finally, I urge each of you to limit your news intake and critically think about what you are being told is news and not propaganda. Everyone on this list cares about our fellow inmates, family and friends. But there is a section of our society that only cares about power and control. Power over you and control of your behavior. Don’t bug the line that is being pushed about,”a NEW NORMAL”. If everyone buys this as a truism...then God help us because we deserve neither free thought, speech, nor liberty!

It’s time to think logically, question everything, and stand up and demand truth.

Steve

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very well written Steve
SHUMBA

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Life! (corona virus, non informative, non hysterical post)

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