Will you take the vaccine

will you take the vaccine

  • yes

    Votes: 91 37.0%
  • no

    Votes: 24 9.8%
  • maybe later

    Votes: 21 8.5%
  • heck no

    Votes: 30 12.2%
  • BTDT - Got the shot

    Votes: 80 32.5%

  • Total voters
    246
Status
Not open for further replies.

Mak10

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
2,567
Location
SE Idaho
Mak10 said:
Please, show me where vaccinated people have a lesser viral load.



From the March edition of Nature Medicine


This is not a controlled experiment and the authors are very careful to note the short comings of the information available. If you read the full article, it is interesting and in my amateur opinion, well done in the data analysis for what was available. I encourage you to read the full article. I pulled the following excerpt.


"The results show that infections occurring 12 d or longer after vaccination have significantly reduced viral loads at the time of testing, potentially affecting viral shedding and contagiousness as well as the severity of the disease13. This report is based on an observational study, not a randomized controlled trial, and has several associated limitations. First, the group of vaccinees might differ from the demographically matched control group in ways that could affect the observed viral load, such as behavior, tendency to get tested and general health status. Second, the different viral variants, which could be associated with different viral loads, might affect different parts of the population. Third, by including only the first positive test for each patient, we attempted to minimize the effect of long-term, low-viral-load infections, but it is still possible that the association we observed, especially in the early post-vaccination days, reflects infections lasting from pre-immunization transmission events9,10,11,12. The average viral load might, therefore, continue to change in longer post-vaccination times, when infections are more strongly enriched for post-immunization transmissions, or due to change in vaccinee behavior, especially upon obtaining a vaccination certificate. Fourth, given that vaccines prevent symptomatic disease, post-vaccination tests might be enriched for cases of asymptomatic carriage characterized by lower viral load, although we note that the association of vaccination with low viral load remains even when adjusting for symptomatic disease (Extended Data Fig. 7). Finally, the oro-nasopharyngeal test does not distinguish the viral load in the nose from the one in the oral cavity and does not account for virus viability, which would be a better measure of potential infectiousness. Moreover, the infectious dose of SARS-CoV-2 in humans is presently unknown."

I should have realized that the conditions the Israeli's agreed to for early access would have generated a study of this nature.

Also note the date. This is rather early on so we do not know about the effect after time
Thanks for finding something, Not very conclusive though. And not enough evidence to support the absolute statements on vital load. Look at their own graph.

“Beyond their substantial protection of individual vaccinees, coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccines MIGHT reduce viral load in breakthrough infection and thereby further suppress onward transmission”.

060178CE-399A-421B-8FC2-CF1BC9989B99.jpeg
 

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
14,819
Location
Joshua TX
So, is your question whether the vaccine prevents the virus, or just reduces the symptoms to a manageable level?
 

Bill_C

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 22, 2021
Messages
492
Location
Central Valley California
@Sierra1
I don't believe he is arguing for either. I believe the underlying question is in regards to the vaccine's ability to lower the transmission rate of the virus among the vaccinated, though I won't speak on his behalf.

It is an interesting statistic to ponder. It would answer the question of whether the unvaccinated are the catalyst for mutation and transmission, or does this virus mutate and transmit via the vaccinated at similar rates?

Footnote: I am both fully vaccinated and a full supporter of the vaccine. I have also had this very question expounded upon by a virologist who is both intimately familiar with this virus and is also waiting for more data to come in before making any conclusions. I will do the same.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

Wallkeeper

Paid Observer of drying paint and curing powder
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
1,158
Location
Minneapolis
A reminder. Keep discussions on point and VERY POLITE.

Manners, Manners and if in doubt GOOD Manners
 

Eville Rich

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
464
Location
Wisconsin, USA
Regarding viral loading, this recent study indicates substantially lower viral loading by vaccinated individuals.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210906/Israeli-study-on-viral-load-Delta-infections-vaccinations-and-boosters.aspx

This was based on data from June-August 2021, covering adults 20 years of age and older using the Pfizer vaccine. A mix of unvaxed, third-shot boosted, and initial vaccines over a range of time. Importantly, this study found that:

"The findings revealed that the two-dose regimen of the BNT162b2 vaccine is highly effective in reducing viral loads of delta breakthrough infections during the initial two months post-second dose vaccination. Compared to unvaccinated individuals, vaccinated individuals exhibited 15-fold lower viral loads, which is similar to that observed in breakthrough infections by non-delta variants. However, the protection against viral load started reducing after two months of the second vaccine dose, followed by a complete diminution after 6 months."

I think the passage, when speaking to reduced effects of the initial vaccine, is referring to viral loading. I don't think that the study was attempting to address the severity of reaction from vaxxed/unvaxxed/boosted individuals. However, with reduced viral loading, this indicates less opportunity for transmission. The impact of the vaccine on reducing the severity of the reaction to COVID-Delta has been pretty well established elsewhere. As noted here: https://elifesciences.org/articles/63537 "Viral load is recognized as a strong determinant of transmission risk (Watanabe et al., 2010). " For those concerned that a 2010 study might not represent COVID and viral loading/transmission risk, please feel free to peruse:
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210203/Viral-load-the-main-driver-of-SARS-CoV-2-transmission.aspx

My takeaway is that the vaccine:
1) Reduces the severity of COVID from the vaxxed individual
2) Reduces the viral loading of the vaxxed individual
3) Reduces the risk of transmission from the vaxxed individual to others

Now, keep in mind that I'm not a virologist or even life scientist. But I also use synthetic oil with much less evidence that it really makes a difference. So I'm kinda good with what these studies are telling us, coupled with the direct and substantial experience we have with the reduced serverity of COVID amongst the vaxxed.

Eville Rich
 

Mak10

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
2,567
Location
SE Idaho
Bill_C nailed it.

I’m not against the vaccine, I am however skeptical. Some here think the vaccine is the best thing since indoor plumbing.

Placing the blame of mutations of the virus solely on the unvaccinated is premature. The best study so far says vaccinated cases “might” have less viral load.

Time wise we’re in the beginning of a long haul.
 

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
14,819
Location
Joshua TX
@Sierra1
I don't believe he is arguing for either. . . .
I wasn't arguing. It was a just question. Just trying to understand. The only thing I know for sure, is that the vaccine goes a long to keeping me alive. It doesn't matter what the vaccine causes years down the road. . . . if I don't survive those years in the first place.
 

Wallkeeper

Paid Observer of drying paint and curing powder
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
1,158
Location
Minneapolis
Regarding viral loading, this recent study indicates substantially lower viral loading by vaccinated individuals.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210906/Israeli-study-on-viral-load-Delta-infections-vaccinations-and-boosters.aspx

This was based on data from June-August 2021, covering adults 20 years of age and older using the Pfizer vaccine. A mix of unvaxed, third-shot boosted, and initial vaccines over a range of time. Importantly, this study found that:

"The findings revealed that the two-dose regimen of the BNT162b2 vaccine is highly effective in reducing viral loads of delta breakthrough infections during the initial two months post-second dose vaccination. Compared to unvaccinated individuals, vaccinated individuals exhibited 15-fold lower viral loads, which is similar to that observed in breakthrough infections by non-delta variants. However, the protection against viral load started reducing after two months of the second vaccine dose, followed by a complete diminution after 6 months."

I think the passage, when speaking to reduced effects of the initial vaccine, is referring to viral loading. I don't think that the study was attempting to address the severity of reaction from vaxxed/unvaxxed/boosted individuals. However, with reduced viral loading, this indicates less opportunity for transmission. The impact of the vaccine on reducing the severity of the reaction to COVID-Delta has been pretty well established elsewhere. As noted here: https://elifesciences.org/articles/63537 "Viral load is recognized as a strong determinant of transmission risk (Watanabe et al., 2010). " For those concerned that a 2010 study might not represent COVID and viral loading/transmission risk, please feel free to peruse:
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210203/Viral-load-the-main-driver-of-SARS-CoV-2-transmission.aspx

My takeaway is that the vaccine:
1) Reduces the severity of COVID from the vaxxed individual
2) Reduces the viral loading of the vaxxed individual
3) Reduces the risk of transmission from the vaxxed individual to others

Now, keep in mind that I'm not a virologist or even life scientist. But I also use synthetic oil with much less evidence that it really makes a difference. So I'm kinda good with what these studies are telling us, coupled with the direct and substantial experience we have with the reduced serverity of COVID amongst the vaxxed.

Eville Rich

Nicely Argued
 

Mak10

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
2,567
Location
SE Idaho
I read these links and keep running into inconclusive findings like “might” and disclaimers.

The problem I have is that people take these and make them absolute truths. People are guilt shaming, and ridiculing people not yet vaccinated.

There is no “win” in this argument. If this vaccine is only viable for 6 months, that’s not good news.

0C3C48F1-41EF-4512-B209-7D85A36A8C00.png
 

Bill_C

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 22, 2021
Messages
492
Location
Central Valley California
I wasn't arguing. It was a just question. Just trying to understand. The only thing I know for sure, is that the vaccine goes a long to keeping me alive. It doesn't matter what the vaccine causes years down the road. . . . if I don't survive those years in the first place.
Sorry, it wasn't my intention to insinuate that you were arguing. It is just a figure of speech and I should have used "suggesting." Sorry if I offended.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
 

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
14,819
Location
Joshua TX
Sorry, it wasn't my intention to insinuate that you were arguing. It is just a figure of speech and I should have used "suggesting." Sorry if I offended.
Nope, my fault. It's sometimes hard to get one's intent across with just the written word. I obviously did not word it correctly. I'm easier to read/understand in person . . . . much to my wife's chagrin.

I'm just not understanding viral load, and not really sure I want/need to.
 

Eville Rich

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
464
Location
Wisconsin, USA
I read these links and keep running into inconclusive findings like “might” and disclaimers.

The problem I have is that people take these and make them absolute truths. People are guilt shaming, and ridiculing people not yet vaccinated.

There is no “win” in this argument. If this vaccine is only viable for 6 months, that’s not good news.
You are correct, the six month window, longer with a booster, is not great news. Maybe boosters will keep working, maybe not. The flu vaccine get replaced each year. Nothing new here. But when enough people continually refuse an opportunity right in front of them they pretty decide the fate of everyone else and guarantee failure at being able to manage the ongoing spread and variants.

I'm pretty sure there's no standard of evidence that is going to be good enough for the holdouts. If that's not the case, then I'm curious about what the standard of evidence actually is. For the record, we cannot prove:
1) Water is wet
2) How gravity works
3) How motorcyles and bicycles stay upright
4) Myriad other things that we accept and use every day

I'm not sure how people function with a standard of proof that is impossible for everyday things to prove. Must be difficult.

Eville Rich
2016 S10
 

Eville Rich

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
464
Location
Wisconsin, USA
It just comes down to "you're not gonna tell me what to do".
Yeah. And I can only apologize that 10 minutes of Internet research is inadequate to present the body of medicall knowledge that's out there. In the end it doesn't matter. We could go get medical degree in virology and pop back to the forum and won't make a difference to the discussion. I'm just glad this forum and thread exists. While a motorcycle forum is not my first choice for medical advice, at least it demonstrates the hill we have to climb in the U.S.

Eville Rich
 

Wallkeeper

Paid Observer of drying paint and curing powder
Staff member
Global Moderator
Joined
Aug 18, 2016
Messages
1,158
Location
Minneapolis
You are correct, the six month window, longer with a booster, is not great news. Maybe boosters will keep working, maybe not. The flu vaccine get replaced each year. Nothing new here. But when enough people continually refuse an opportunity right in front of them they pretty decide the fate of everyone else and guarantee failure at being able to manage the ongoing spread and variants.

I'm pretty sure there's no standard of evidence that is going to be good enough for the holdouts. If that's not the case, then I'm curious about what the standard of evidence actually is. For the record, we cannot prove:
1) Water is wet
2) How gravity works
3) How motorcyles and bicycles stay upright
4) Myriad other things that we accept and use every day

I'm not sure how people function with a standard of proof that is impossible for everyday things to prove. Must be difficult.

Eville Rich
2016 S10
Interesting

1. subject to variation- unless you have insomnia, you DO NOT want me to go there *L*
2. see Issac Newton third law of motion....by all accounts he was an Ass but a very Bright Ass (I resisted saying "Smart" Yay Me!)
as modified by Einstein
3. Our boy Issac again and the 1st Law....the problems occur when we have to apply the 2nd law as adjusted by du Chatelet....gets ugly at times and is why we wear helmets etc. (read her Bio some time...sounds like she was a LOT of FUN)
4. Yup....and so on

Where am I going with this? To your point of no experimental proof. We can posit a theory and then test the predictions from that theory against real world observations. When they don't always fit, you review and reconstruct the theory until there are no anomalies. That is the root of Einsteins and du Chatelets works.

How does this apply to the Vaccine? The data tells us those who get vaccinated are less likely to catch, be hospitalized or die of Covid. Can we prove it experimentally? Not without doing the kinds of experiments that have supposedly not been done since WW II.

For me, for now, it is enough
 

Mak10

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
2,567
Location
SE Idaho
What I am seeing is that we are putting all our faith in the “vaccine” as a he cure all, end all solution. If you look at the data and want to believe it , it shows the vaccine provides some protection initially, but degrades rapidly.

One issue I have is the blame of this pandemic being pointed at the “unvaccinated” or the unmasked, or the people going to bike rallies or ???? Society wants someone to blame.
I understand people’s hesitation in getting a vaccine that is not yet proven. It’s going to take time.
I get the feeling that people are not honest about the vaccine shortcomings because then people won’t get vaccinated.
The sooner we all realize that not everyone is going to be vaccinated, you can’t mandate, force, make or guilt everyone to do it the better off we’ll be. What is plan C?
I’m afraid we’re in this for a long haul.

Another fallacy that is out there: “If you get Covid surely thou WILL die”. I know many people (even some of my kids) who have had Covid, and have fully recovered.
Live your life, get vaccinated if it puts your mind at ease.
There are many things we as lowly humans don’t understand.
 

WJBertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
4,516
Location
Ventura, CA
What I am seeing is that we are putting all our faith in the “vaccine” as a he cure all, end all solution. If you look at the data and want to believe it , it shows the vaccine provides some protection initially, but degrades rapidly.
I don't see that at all. What about lockdowns, mask mandates, social distancing, travel restrictions, etc. The vaccine is just one tool in the bag, though probably one of the most effective ones, even if it only lasts 6 - 8 months. That might be enough time for the virus to die out, or at least be reduced to the point where it is no longer considered a pandemic.
 

Mak10

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2018
Messages
2,567
Location
SE Idaho
I’ll tell you what, WJ in a years time if the virus has died out. I’ll ride my bike to California and buy you a Steak dinner at the restaurant of your choice. Let’s even make it 2 years from now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top